First Impressions On The Slides

[[old] PaulS]

<!--QuoteBegin-FrancoisA+Jan 13 2006, 07:36 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(FrancoisA @ Jan 13 2006, 07:36 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-PaulS+Jan 13 2006, 03:38 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Jan 13 2006, 03:38 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I put my Erg on the ground for a few tests today (hadn't been on a ground bound Erg in more than a year) and it was easier to go faster at lower rates, go figure. <br /> </td></tr></table><br />Paul,<br />What difference in rating (i.e. spm) to you find between slides vs. no slides for a given pace ?<br /><br />Thanks<br />Francois <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />As promised, with a more objective look at the data it was not quite the pace difference I thought I saw (1.7 faster on the Ground), the rate difference was about right (+1.8 on slides), and it is clear from the data where the extra pace comes from (higher peak force).<br /><br />The SPI's were 10.87(Ground) and 9.68(Slides) which would be expected from the pace differences. The Average Handle force for the drive was 7kg higher on the Grounded Erg. Which would certainly add up over time, not to meitng the 20kg difference in peak force.<br /><br />A larger difference came in the Distance/Stroke: 9.94m(Slides) and 10.80m(ground), I suspect that since I always train on slides and S10PS that even though these basically "felt" the same, the more familiar setting gave the result expected from a high practice effect.<br /><br /><img src='http://www.ps-sport.net/pictures/SlideGroundTest01.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />

[[old] John Rupp]

The force with the flywheel might be the same either way.<br /><br />However, there is less weight to push back and forth on the slides.<br /><br />The difference depends on the weight of the rower.

[[old] FrancoisA]

<!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+Jan 13 2006, 04:54 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Jan 13 2006, 04:54 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The slides are faster, because you are pushing much less weight with your legs, and driving less weight with your torso and your arms. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Paul could correct me if I am wrong, but it seems that from Physics 101, Newton's second law should apply here: F = ma (Force = mass times acceleration).<br /><br />Sure, you are pushing less mass with your legs, but you have to accelerate it more to produce the same force than when the erg is off slides. The flywheel is unaffected by whether it is moving relative to you or that you are moving relative to it; it is only affected by the pressure you can apply to the handle.

[[old] gw1]

<!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->QUOTE(John Rupp @ Jan 13 2006, 11:07 AM)<br />I have 20 times in my signature file, 10 for my fastest in the last three years, and 10 for my fastest this ranking year.<br /><br />Based on age and weight, every single one of them is faster then any of yours.<br />I'd say that's quite competitive, at least where you are concerned.<br /><br /><br />You can't compete against me, until you gain some weight, height, speed, and get younger. It's understandable to be where you are, with your limitations, I've got no disagreement with that. I'm pleased that you enjoy it.<br /><br />QUOTE<br />Your intentionally confusing posts might fool some into sabotaging themselves but they don't fool me.<br /><br /><br />Hmm, seems you are the only one confused, but perhaps when you learn to read, it will become clear.<br /><br />QUOTE<br />I prefer trying things out for myself and making up my own mind about things.<br /><br /><br />Indeed, and we're all aware of what a keen mind you have.<br /><br />QUOTE<br />This is the primary reason why my results are so much better than yours, even though you have been rowing for more than 20 years, and I'm a distance runner just rowing for health, fun and fitness.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Do you keep your head up your arse for warmth?<br /><br />I haven't been rowing for 20 years, I've been around the sport as a participant and coach for 20+ years, a bit of a difference.<br /><br />Why are you so hostile? Are you ashamed of your Erging performance? You seem to want to put down others that are faster than you could ever dream to be, the math is simple. <br />Faster = Faster no "pity PATT" required.<br /><br />Now either produce the times you say are so much easier on Slides or don't, but if you don't, you can't really claim to have credibility, Mr. Wizard.<br /><br />BTW - Why did you chicken out of your own challenge, when I was generous enough to offer that we use slides, where you could "smash your times at any distance"? Especially the 500m where you would be fastest of all.  </td></tr></table><br /><br />Alright you 2 go to your rooms. FB2 has had about 25 consecutive days of rain. JR it is not good life coaching to take cheap shots while he has cabin fever. Didn't your mama tell you not to "poke the bear"

[[old] John Rupp]

<!--QuoteBegin-FrancoisA+Jan 13 2006, 12:00 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(FrancoisA @ Jan 13 2006, 12:00 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Sure, you are pushing less mass with your legs, but you have to accelerate it more to produce the same force than when the erg is off slides. The flywheel is unaffected by whether it is moving relative to you or that you are moving relative to it; it is only affected by the pressure you can apply to the handle. </td></tr></table><br /><br />Are you saying if the erg weighed 1500 pounds you could push it back and forth as easily as if it weighed 30 pounds?<br />

[[old] PaulS]

<!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+Jan 13 2006, 11:59 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Jan 13 2006, 11:59 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->PaulS,<br /><br />Stop being such a jerk, and get your head out of YOUR ass.<br /><br />As I stated above -- look up ^ -- I don't want to waste my effort with a ranking distance on the slides, because they are so much faster than the erg.<br /><br />Try working on your reading comprehension. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br /><br />Ha, now you're just getting funny. <br /><br />Thinking you are faster doesn't make it so. I'm comprehending just fine, you've changed from Duck to Chicken, a small miracle in itself. So stop cackling and ducking the issue and produce your faster time, no need to rank it, just report it. I don't do either anymore since all it does is make you think you actually know something, or worse yet, you would question the validity and make yourself look even more foolish than usual.

[[old] John Rupp]

I think it would be easier to push a 30 pound weight than a 1500 pound weight.

[[old] John Rupp]

In particular if you are trying to push that weight and also row at the same time.<br /><br />Let's say you had a fixed seat and the erg weighed 1500 pounds.<br /><br />You wouldn't be able to move the erg very quickly, certainly not 4 feet in 2 seconds and repeat this over and over.<br /><br />Would you?<br /><br />What pace do you think you could reach with this type of conditions?

[[old] PaulS]

<!--QuoteBegin-FrancoisA+Jan 13 2006, 12:00 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(FrancoisA @ Jan 13 2006, 12:00 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+Jan 13 2006, 04:54 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Jan 13 2006, 04:54 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The slides are faster, because you are pushing much less weight with your legs, and driving less weight with your torso and your arms. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Paul could correct me if I am wrong, but it seems that from Physics 101, Newton's second law should apply here: F = ma (Force = mass times acceleration).<br /><br />Sure, you are pushing less mass with your legs, but you have to accelerate it more to produce the same force than when the erg is off slides. The flywheel is unaffected by whether it is moving relative to you or that you are moving relative to it; it is only affected by the pressure you can apply to the handle. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Sure, F=MA as usual.<br /><br />On first instinct, it would appear that this would cause a difference between the Slides and Grounded Erg, but that is not what is shown in the experimental evidence. Even my simple example, which did not have good controls showed that the peak force at teh handle was higher when on the Grounded Erg, which would be the opposite of what one might expect is there were not other variables at work.<br /><br />What happens on the Ground is that we do indeed have to accelerate some of our bodies mass on the drive, but that mass also must be brought to a stop, so the forces are balanced and accounted for at the flywheel. When on slides, we still accelerate our body, but since the Erg is usually lighter, and free to move in the opposite direction it moves far more, at the finish there is less mass to bring to a stop but it also balances. In other words, the finish on the slides is held through more muscular activity than when on the grounded erg since there is less momentum to exchange. It appears that this increase in muscualr activity will cause the HR to be slightly higher for a given pace when on slides and controlling for Stroke rate.<br /><br />It is easier to rate higher on the slides, but once again, there is only so much rate to trade and eventually, no matter how easy the drive is, high frequency repetition becomes a limiting factor. i.e. doing dumbell curls with 10 pounds twice as fast as doing them with 20 pounds will be the same amount of work, but very different experiences.

[[old] PaulS]

<!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+Jan 13 2006, 12:05 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Jan 13 2006, 12:05 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-PaulS+Jan 13 2006, 11:30 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Jan 13 2006, 11:30 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Why did you chicken out of your own challenge, when I was generous enough to offer that we use slides, where you could "smash your times at any distance"?  Especially the 500m where you would be fastest of all.  </td></tr></table><br /><br />I got tired. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Okay, now I understand.

[[old] FrancoisA]

<!--QuoteBegin-PaulS+Jan 13 2006, 07:53 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Jan 13 2006, 07:53 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-FrancoisA+Jan 13 2006, 07:36 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(FrancoisA @ Jan 13 2006, 07:36 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-PaulS+Jan 13 2006, 03:38 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Jan 13 2006, 03:38 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I put my Erg on the ground for a few tests today (hadn't been on a ground bound Erg in more than a year) and it was easier to go faster at lower rates, go figure. <br /> </td></tr></table><br />Paul,<br />What difference in rating (i.e. spm) to you find between slides vs. no slides for a given pace ?<br /><br />Thanks<br />Francois <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />As promised, with a more objective look at the data it was not quite the pace difference I thought I saw (1.7 faster on the Ground), the rate difference was about right (+1.8 on slides), and it is clear from the data where the extra pace comes from (higher peak force).<br /><br />The SPI's were 10.87(Ground) and 9.68(Slides) which would be expected from the pace differences. The Average Handle force for the drive was 7kg higher on the Grounded Erg. Which would certainly add up over time, not to meitng the 20kg difference in peak force.<br /><br />A larger difference came in the Distance/Stroke: 9.94m(Slides) and 10.80m(ground), I suspect that since I always train on slides and S10PS that even though these basically "felt" the same, the more familiar setting gave the result expected from a high practice effect.<br /><br /><img src='http://www.ps-sport.net/pictures/SlideGroundTest01.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' /> <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Paul,<br /><br />Off slides, you are covering 25.8 * 10.8 = 278.64m/min <br />On the slides you are doing 27.6 * 9.94 = 274.34m/min<br />So there is a difference of 4.3m/min, which means an extra 0.43 spm (4.3/9.94) would be needed on top of the 1.8 spm. So in your case, to go at the a pace of 1:47.7, your stroke rate is 2.2 spm higher on the slides.<br /><br />Does that make sense ?<br /><br />P.S. I am amazed at the wealth of information and the nice graphics you can generate with the ergMonitor

[[old] PaulS]

<!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+Jan 13 2006, 12:07 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Jan 13 2006, 12:07 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So your 6:34 is your all time best then... right.  <br /> </td></tr></table><br />No.<br /><!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Cause you're gaining more weight?  <br /> </td></tr></table><br />No, because a bit more than 2 years ago, a pair of very hard Erg Time Trials (500m and 2500M) lead to a lot of time away from being able to get on the water and I don't want to cause that again. If I knew at what threshold the problem was caused it would be a different matter, but it was more of a surprise in the days following, so it's mostly a risk management strategy at this point. Plus, my Erging performance is incidental, it's the assistance I can provide to others to improve their performance that is far more rewarding.<br /><br />As far as weight goes, I'm working on taking some more of that off because I'd like my boat to float a bit higher in the water. Though we still managed to do reasonably well at the World Masters Games, any lost bodyweight is advantageous at this point. <br />

[[old] John Rupp]

To get valid results, you need to have good controls and conditions to begin with.

[[old] John Rupp]

My last experiment entailed 30 minutes of rowing at faster than I can currently do for a 2k.<br /><br />I duplicated the exact same session on the erg, took two days to recover, then repeated the session on the slides.<br /><br />This was quite an extensive and valid experiment.<br /><br />It is not the same as if you take 8 strokes at 2k + 8 and then put that on a chart.<br /><br />Try doing the same thing that I did and see what results you get then.

[[old] John Rupp]

I think it's better to do 1 or 2 good experiments and have valid results, than to do a bunch of them that are not set up property.<br /><br />Also it is important to be open minded about the results that you get, and not to set up an experiment to get one result or another, but rather to extend the criteria so that only the best indications will result from your efforts.