First Impressions On The Slides

[old] PaulS · Post by **[old] PaulS** » January 12th, 2006, 11:38 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Jan 12 2006, 07:20 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(FrankJ @ Jan 12 2006, 05:05 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>The challenge for you is to try a 60 minute or half marathon with the slides to see if you can really beat your non-slide time. </td></tr></table><br />There's no question at all that I could smash my erg times on the slides.<br /><br />They are fabulous and lots of fun to use.<br /><br />Thanks much for yours and the forum's generosity. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />You're welcome.<br /><br />But there is indeed a question as to "smashing" your times on the slides. You have established times listed in your signature, so go ahead and smash them, starting with the 500m, less than 2 minutes of effort involved there, and it's the easiest one to keep the rate up for.<br /><br />I put my Erg on the ground for a few tests today (hadn't been on a ground bound Erg in more than a year) and it was easier to go faster at lower rates, go figure.

[old] mpukita · Post by **[old] mpukita** » January 12th, 2006, 11:47 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Jan 12 2006, 11:38 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Jan 12 2006, 07:20 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(FrankJ @ Jan 12 2006, 05:05 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>The challenge for you is to try a 60 minute or half marathon with the slides to see if you can really beat your non-slide time. </td></tr></table><br />There's no question at all that I could smash my erg times on the slides.<br /><br />They are fabulous and lots of fun to use.<br /><br />Thanks much for yours and the forum's generosity. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />You're welcome.<br /><br />But there is indeed a question as to "smashing" your times on the slides. You have established times listed in your signature, so go ahead and smash them, starting with the 500m, less than 2 minutes of effort involved there, and it's the easiest one to keep the rate up for.<br /><br />I put my Erg on the ground for a few tests today (hadn't been on a ground bound Erg in more than a year) and it was easier to go faster at lower rates, go figure. <br /> </td></tr></table><br />Not scientific, but I'm faster at every distance <b>without the slides</b>. Part of why I like training with them, is a perceived ability to slightly overload training with them, making rowing "standard" that much easier when I do it ... in reality or not ...

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » January 13th, 2006, 12:08 am

As I have stated before, there is no reason for me to smash my times on the slides, because the slides are so much faster than the erg.<br /><br />Thus I feel it would not be right to put any slide times in the rankings. <br /><br />Additionally, when going for time I would rather use the effort on the erg, and then be able to put the time in the rankings with no question of legitimacy.

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » January 13th, 2006, 12:10 am

I had expected it would take me awhile to get used to using the slides, but they turned out to be quite a bit faster right from the start.<br /><br />Perhaps the difference will grow as I continue to get used to them.

[old] PaulS · Post by **[old] PaulS** » January 13th, 2006, 10:19 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Jan 12 2006, 08:08 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>As I have stated before, there is no reason for me to smash my times on the slides, because the slides are so much faster than the erg.<br /><br />Thus I feel it would not be right to put any slide times in the rankings. <br /><br />Additionally, when going for time I would rather use the effort on the erg, and then be able to put the time in the rankings with no question of legitimacy. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Obviously this is an unusual response to the slides as it is contrary to controlled scientific studies that have been done. Of course you know this already but continue to repeat false claims to support your personal view.<br /><br />There is NO "question of legitimacy" of ranking times with the slides, however they are not within the rules for World Records, but then again, there are a lot of Rules regarding World Records that you care nothing about as evidenced by your fabrication of times that you refer to as World Records. How do you justify your mutually exclusive claims?<br /><br />Anyway, you put in so much effort on the Erg, that proving your own ability to go "so much faster" on the slides (really an indicator of what your potential off them would be) would be worth the few minutes it would take. This is a great way to get some improvement, if you are interested in that.

[old] FrancoisA · Post by **[old] FrancoisA** » January 13th, 2006, 11:36 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Jan 13 2006, 03:38 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>I put my Erg on the ground for a few tests today (hadn't been on a ground bound Erg in more than a year) and it was easier to go faster at lower rates, go figure. <br /> </td></tr></table><br />Paul,<br /><br />What difference in rating (i.e. spm) to you find between slides vs. no slides for a given pace ?<br /><br />Also, are they easier on your back? Recently, I pulled a muscle in my back, between my spine and shoulder blade, and it hurts especially at the catch. I find that there is a slight "slack" in the chain at the catch before power is transmitted to the flywheel; it is at this precise moment that I find it stressful for the back and the shoulders. Would the slides alleviate that problem, or is it my technique that is at fault ? <br /><br />Thanks<br /><br />Francois

[old] PaulS · Post by **[old] PaulS** » January 13th, 2006, 12:06 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(FrancoisA @ Jan 13 2006, 07:36 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Jan 13 2006, 03:38 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>I put my Erg on the ground for a few tests today (hadn't been on a ground bound Erg in more than a year) and it was easier to go faster at lower rates, go figure. <br /> </td></tr></table><br />Paul,<br /><br />What difference in rating (i.e. spm) to you find between slides vs. no slides for a given pace ?<br /><br />Also, are they easier on your back? Recently, I pulled a muscle in my back, between my spine and shoulder blade, and it hurts especially at the catch. I find that there is a slight "slack" in the chain at the catch before power is transmitted to the flywheel; it is at this precise moment that I find it stressful for the back and the shoulders. Would the slides alleviate that problem, or is it my technique that is at fault ? <br /><br />Thanks<br /><br />Francois <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />In the "off the cuff" example above, the rating difference was about 2 spm with a pace difference of about 5 seconds. (Faster at the lower rate on the Ground) I think this was largely due to getting a bit longer stroke on the ground, as there is a bit of an assist in gaining forward reach allowing for more time under drive pressure. I'll get serious about this and do a more accurate test of this today, as the resutl caught me by suprise.<br /><br />If I maintain S10PS in both situations, the rates and Paces are identical, as well as the force profiles being very close.<br /><br />I don't find slides to be particularly easier on my back, but my wife does, and I think FrankJ also reports that benefit. I can't speak for FrankJ, but my wife "lunges" a bit into the catch (working on fixing that) and that could easily be a technique issue that would cause a slack feeling on the Grounded Erg due to the weaker starting position resulting in the legs acting to protect the back by not moving as quickly. This would be related to the lower back, which does not seem to be where you pulled a muscle which is causing you pain now. What that sounds like, is that you may be tensing up your shoulders ("ear warming") and then pulling hard with them through the middle of the drive. Try to keep the shoulders low and relaxed, not so loose that they get yanked forward at the catch, the muscles do need to be firm to take the initial load without hesitation.<br /><br />Another thing to concentrate on, is the approach to the catch, it should be a uniform decelleration of the slide so that you can change direction very quickly without having to stop the upper bodies momentum too quickly.

[old] FrancoisA · Post by **[old] FrancoisA** » January 13th, 2006, 12:44 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Jan 13 2006, 04:06 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(FrancoisA @ Jan 13 2006, 07:36 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Jan 13 2006, 03:38 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>I put my Erg on the ground for a few tests today (hadn't been on a ground bound Erg in more than a year) and it was easier to go faster at lower rates, go figure. <br /> </td></tr></table><br />Paul,<br /><br />What difference in rating (i.e. spm) to you find between slides vs. no slides for a given pace ?<br /><br />Also, are they easier on your back? Recently, I pulled a muscle in my back, between my spine and shoulder blade, and it hurts especially at the catch. I find that there is a slight "slack" in the chain at the catch before power is transmitted to the flywheel; it is at this precise moment that I find it stressful for the back and the shoulders. Would the slides alleviate that problem, or is it my technique that is at fault ? <br /><br />Thanks<br /><br />Francois <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />In the "off the cuff" example above, the rating difference was about 2 spm with a pace difference of about 5 seconds. (Faster at the lower rate on the Ground) I think this was largely due to getting a bit longer stroke on the ground, as there is a bit of an assist in gaining forward reach allowing for more time under drive pressure. I'll get serious about this and do a more accurate test of this today, as the resutl caught me by suprise.<br /><br />If I maintain S10PS in both situations, the rates and Paces are identical, as well as the force profiles being very close.<br /><br />I don't find slides to be particularly easier on my back, but my wife does, and I think FrankJ also reports that benefit. I can't speak for FrankJ, but my wife "lunges" a bit into the catch (working on fixing that) and that could easily be a technique issue that would cause a slack feeling on the Grounded Erg due to the weaker starting position resulting in the legs acting to protect the back by not moving as quickly. This would be related to the lower back, which does not seem to be where you pulled a muscle which is causing you pain now. What that sounds like, is that you may be tensing up your shoulders ("ear warming") and then pulling hard with them through the middle of the drive. Try to keep the shoulders low and relaxed, not so loose that they get yanked forward at the catch, the muscles do need to be firm to take the initial load without hesitation.<br /><br />Another thing to concentrate on, is the approach to the catch, it should be a uniform decelleration of the slide so that you can change direction very quickly without having to stop the upper bodies momentum too quickly. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />I just tried your suggestions and it helps a lot! Thanks!<br /><br />I was going too fast at the catch i.e. not decelerating, and my shoulders were rounded in order to gain a few inches at the catch. I found that with your suggestions, I can make better use of my legs.<br /><br />Thanks again!<br /><br />Francois<br /><br />

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » January 13th, 2006, 12:54 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(FrancoisA @ Jan 13 2006, 07:36 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>What difference in rating (i.e. spm) to you find between slides vs. no slides for a given pace ? </td></tr></table><br /><br />For a given pace, there is no difference in the rating.<br /><br />The slides are faster, because you are pushing much less weight with your legs, and driving less weight with your torso and your arms.<br /><br />For me at 143 pounds the difference appears to be about 1.5 to 2 seconds faster on the slides, which comes out to about 1/2 beat per minute on the rating.

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » January 13th, 2006, 1:02 pm

You could have scientific studies that somehow prove it is easier to lift a 250 pound weight than a 35 pound weight. There have been numerous studies trying to prove smoking is safe, or that certain drugs are healthy, though found to cause birth defects, cancer, death and so on.<br /><br />I prefer to observe and make note of what actually happens, rather than trying to come up with studies to try and prove something that is false.

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » January 13th, 2006, 1:05 pm

I plan to alternate using the slides and erg for repetitions, and to do my time trials on the erg.<br /><br />With the slides being 2 seconds faster per 500 meters, for me, this would be a 40 second difference for a 10k.

[old] PaulS · Post by **[old] PaulS** » January 13th, 2006, 1:20 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Jan 13 2006, 08:54 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Jan 12 2006, 08:08 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>As I have stated before, there is no reason for me to smash my times on the slides, because the slides are so much faster than the erg.<br /><br />Thus I feel it would not be right to put any slide times in the rankings. <br /><br />Additionally, when going for time I would rather use the effort on the erg, and then be able to put the time in the rankings with no question of legitimacy. </td></tr></table><br />All the things I have stated here are correct.<br /><br />The slides are faster, because you are pushing much less weight with your legs, and driving less weight with your torso and your arms. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Quoting yourself as verification of fact or correctness is generally called propaganda, and is meaningless in reality.<br /><br /><b>Lightweights are pushing much less weight with their legs, and driving less weight with their torso and your arms.</b><br /><br />So lwts must be faster? Doesn't seem to work out, does it?<br /><br />The "extra weight" you are mentioning, is not "extra" at all, it is accounted for right at the flywheel as the weight is brought to a stop using the force against the handle.<br /><br />I believe you are correct in thinking that studies can be manipulated, but you are the one doing the manipulation, while the legitimate studies attempt to minimize false positives by using appropriate controls.<br /><br />You have already said that you do not compete on the Erg, so "competitive effort" can not be wasted.

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » January 13th, 2006, 3:07 pm

I'm not sure exactly what the weight is of pushing the erg one direction and the body a lesser amount in the other, but let's say it's 35 pounds.<br /><br />On the erg I would be pushing most of my body along the railing, which is 143 pounds.<br /><br />My feet don't get pushed along, as they stay on the foot plates. So I don't know the exact weight that I push on the erg either. Let's say it is also 1/2, or around 75 pounds. Since it's 1/2 on each one, the ratios are the same if we use the full weights, thus 65 pounds on the slides and 143 pounds on the erg.<br /><br />The fan resistance stays the same.<br /><br />Thus the difference is in the amount of weight that is pushed up and down the railing with the legs.<br /><br />For me, the weight is 45% on the slides as it is on the erg, which helps to explain why I am getting 2 seconds per 500 meters faster on the slides than the erg.<br /><br />For someone weighing 217 pounds, the weight pushed would be only 30% on the slides as it is on the erg, and thus the difference should be much greater than 2 seconds per 500 meters.

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » January 13th, 2006, 3:11 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Jan 13 2006, 09:20 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Lightweights are pushing much less weight with their legs, and driving less weight with their torso and your arms. </td></tr></table><br /><br />The erg is the same weight regardless of the weight of the rower.<br /><br />Thus the differential between heavyweight and lightweight and the erg is much greater.<br /><br />Lightweights are pushing a much greater percentage of their weight.

[old] PaulS · Post by **[old] PaulS** » January 13th, 2006, 3:30 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Jan 13 2006, 11:07 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>I have 20 times in my signature file, 10 for my fastest in the last three years, and 10 for my fastest this ranking year.<br /><br />Based on age and weight, every single one of them is faster then any of yours.<br />I'd say that's quite competitive, at least where you are concerned.<br /> </td></tr></table><br />You can't compete against me, until you gain some weight, height, speed, and get younger. It's understandable to be where you are, with your limitations, I've got no disagreement with that. I'm pleased that you enjoy it.<br /><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Your intentionally confusing posts might fool some into sabotaging themselves but they don't fool me.<br /> </td></tr></table><br />Hmm, seems you are the only one confused, but perhaps when you learn to read, it will become clear.<br /><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>I prefer trying things out for myself and making up my own mind about things.<br /> </td></tr></table><br />Indeed, and we're all aware of what a keen mind you have.<br /><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>This is the primary reason why my results are so much better than yours, even though you have been rowing for more than 20 years, and I'm a distance runner just rowing for health, fun and fitness. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Do you keep your head up your arse for warmth?<br /><br />I haven't been rowing for 20 years, I've been around the sport as a participant and coach for 20+ years, a bit of a difference.<br /><br />Why are you so hostile? Are you ashamed of your Erging performance? You seem to want to put down others that are faster than you could ever dream to be, the math is simple. <br />Faster = Faster no "pity PATT" required.<br /><br />Now either produce the times you say are so much easier on Slides or don't, but if you don't, you can't really claim to have credibility, Mr. Wizard.<br /><br />BTW - Why did you chicken out of your own challenge, when I was generous enough to offer that we use slides, where you could "smash your times at any distance"? Especially the 500m where you would be fastest of all.

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