I feel like I underuse my legs on the erg

[TheXe]

I don't really know if this is normal as my technique on the erg, whilst correct (I think), still makes me feel like most of my strength in rowing comes from my finish. Now this doesn't really mean that my legs aren't used at all, they burn like **** after a workout and I can't really stand properly for a few minutes after the workout, but from what my trainers told me I lean back way more than neccessary. I think I indeed do that, mainly because I try to generate an explosive movement with my legs and then have the finish with the same feriocity as the drive (well, not too ferious going 2:11 for 45min but still ). During the workouts, when I explicity try not to overly lean back during the finish, the whole movement feels a lot less efficient and the subsuquent strokes are usually a few seconds/500m slower than if I lean back with my legs. Additionally, I've been told to not lean back during the drive, as first my legs should do the move and THEN my upper body, but in the middle of the Drive I still already begin leaning back and from what I've seen, some rowers on the water also do that. But could that maybe be a reason for me feeling like I don't generate enough power from my legs? (As they should be the dominant muscle, shouldnt I actually feel the muscle really working outside of just having sore as hell muscles after the workout [which i think should be normal])

Sorry for bad text form, it's just lots of thoughts ontop of eachother.

[gvcormac]

Your legs do most of the work, in an absolute sense. But as a fraction of their overall capacity, they probably do less than your arms and back.

Personally, I don't get a burn on any of my skeletal muscles. Except for 100m sprints, my speed is limited by my total aerobic/anearobic capacity, not any particular muscle group. For100m sprints, it is hard to tell. It is limited by total force that I can generate. Still, when I'm done I'm gasping for air, not worrying about what muscles are burning.

[MPx]

Sounds to me like you're leaking power. You need to have arms straight and a rigid core to transmit max leg power to the handle. No bent arms or hip swing until the legs are nearly done or you are limiting your power to that of the other muscles and not your legs.

[Elizabeth]

Have you tried drills to break down the different parts of the movement? Pick drills and reverse pick drills can be helpful.

[jamesg]

2:11 for 45min - 5'7 134lbs 16M

Not bad at all, relax and stop worrying. That's a lot of work, 155W at 134lb (61 kg), is over 2.5W/kg.

Using the standard rowing style, with recovery: hands swing slide, and pull: slide swing arms, you can't go wrong. Long leanback is really old stuff: a lot of work with no effect.

You'll be using legs and hips, which is where the muscle is. Keep it smooth and simple:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxFYqjgHjPU

[Dangerscouse]

I don't think starting to lean back in the middle of the drive is an efficient movement, as you need to treat it like a deadlift. Leaning back too much is quite subjective; just look at Hamish Bond and Eric Murray as their respective techniques are different but undoubtedly extremely effective.

I also don't feel much effort through my legs unless it's a TT, and I rarely get the lactic burn that some others really suffer from. I believe that is just your physiology and not a sign of bad form.

[Sakly]

I don't think starting to lean back in the middle of the drive is an efficient movement, as you need to treat it like a deadlift.

I do not completely agree. In a deadlift the back angle only stays constant until you reach your knees, then you hinge during leg extension. I certainly do the same on the rower, hinging the hips during leg drive.
Probably this is not the most efficient technique, but for me it feels absolutely natural and fluent.
I wanted to take a video shot of my technique long ago, perhaps I should do it near future to get some hints

Effort through my legs is absolutely the same. Don't feel much, as these are my strongest muscles by far.

[Dangerscouse]

I don't think starting to lean back in the middle of the drive is an efficient movement, as you need to treat it like a deadlift.

I do not completely agree. In a deadlift the back angle only stays constant until you reach your knees, then you hinge during leg extension. I certainly do the same on the rower, hinging the hips during leg drive.
Probably this is not the most efficient technique, but for me it feels absolutely natural and fluent.

OK, just to clarify, there will be some movement but it's going to be more about setting your upper body to take the strain when the legs have mainly finished the push. So, it's more of a movement from 1 o clock to 12 o clock, and there has to be some movement otherwise you'll be in a weak position for the back, and shooting the slide.

Obviously there's some differences, and maybe even bad habits that do work well regardless of the usual advice. I wouldn't change that if you've properly tried different methods. I've seen horrendous technique from people who can row sub 6:10 2k.

[Sakly]

OK, just to clarify, there will be some movement but it's going to be more about setting your upper body to take the strain when the legs have mainly finished the push. So, it's more of a movement from 1 o clock to 12 o clock, and there has to be some movement otherwise you'll be in a weak position for the back, and shooting the slide.

We do not seem to be far away from each other reading the clarification

[iain]

I find my legs feel the strain when rowing at lower ratings, what rating do you use for each type of session? As well as less productive use of energy with an extended leanback, this slows the stroke as you have more recovery to do. I do tend to leanback too far and as a result struggle to get my rating up to normal racing levels. Conversely many people increase their layback at lower ratings where this isn't an issue to get a better pace at an artificially restricted rating (there is some benefit from the increased stroke length as seen from your pace quickening). As low rate training is a training technique, there is little point in trying to tease out a little faster pace at the expense of making the session more fatiguing than intended! When trying to row faster, it should be possible to increase the pace more through the increased rating obtainable with a more normal stroke. As someone with short legs, I learned to extend my leanback to compensate in a boat when your rating is limited by the rest of the crew. This is not an issue on ergs!

In addition, the upper body is engaged more at higher DF. You might like to try rowing at a DF say 20 points lower as an exercise. Then you have to be more explosive with your legs and hopefully you can carry this through to erging at normal DF afterwards. One word of warning, low DF is more tolerant of some technique errors such as rowing with bent arms, so you need to make sure that you don't get into bad habits.

Best of luck.

IAin

[TheXe]

Have you tried drills to break down the different parts of the movement? Pick drills and reverse pick drills can be helpful.

I've just had a drill along the lines of that, at least part of the drill was removing the straps. This was what made me realize how far im leaning back as without the straps I almost fly away from the machine ,I might go ahead and attempt such a drill today (normally we'd go run today but my shins have not been working the way they should for like over 3 weeks as just walking a few KM is apparently enough for them to basically feel like dying) whilst at the same time trying to maintain the same time

[TheXe]

I also don't feel much effort through my legs unless it's a TT, and I rarely get the lactic burn that some others really suffer from. I believe that is just your physiology and not a sign of bad form.

Damn that's crazy, I feel lactic burn nearly always at the end of my workout, although to be fair I try to get even further down with the time, down to a 2:00 for the last minute (if I'm not completely dead by then ) It isn't completely mind-numbing 2K kind of lactic burn, it just hurts a bit and basically forces you to keep going

[TheXe]

... technique, there is little point in trying to tease out a little faster pace at the expense of making the session more fatiguing than intended! When trying to row faster, it should be possible to increase the pace more through the increased rating obtainable with a more normal stroke. As someone with short legs, I learned to extend my leanback to compensate in a boat when your rating is limited by the rest of the crew. This is not an issue on ergs!

In addition, the upper body is engaged more at higher DF. You might like to try rowing at a DF say 20 points lower as an exercise. Then you have to be more explosive with your legs and hopefully you can carry this through to erging at normal DF afterwards. One word of warning, low DF is more tolerant of some technique errors such as rowing with bent arms, so you need to make sure that you don't get into bad habits.

I row usually at a stroke rating of 18-21 strokes per minute and I think I trained this leaning back too far around last year, when I was the bow of a 2X with someone who was like 15cm taller than me to try to have the same stroke-length as him. My DF is usually around 6/7 on the scale (haven't really checked the exact number) but generally speaking I cant really get away with stuff like rowing with bent arms f.e.

[Dangerscouse]

Damn that's crazy, I feel lactic burn nearly always at the end of my workout, although to be fair I try to get even further down with the time, down to a 2:00 for the last minute (if I'm not completely dead by then ) It isn't completely mind-numbing 2K kind of lactic burn, it just hurts a bit and basically forces you to keep going

That's quite common, and I think I'm in the minority. I rarely feel the need to drink during a workout, so I'm wondering if my significant amount of drinking water every day helps, as lactic acid is produced when we're low on oxygen and hydrogen ions. I'm also more suited to endurance sessions, so I've possibly got a more efficient oxygen utilisation system

[KeithT]

This post ended up generating some interesting thoughts and experiences. Seems people have the extreme rigors of rowing hit them in different ways. I am more like the poster and Stu in that I can feel my legs are "blown-up" after a TT but I never get that lactic burn during the test - my body and muscles will start to "shut down" but still not really burn. At times when I row I exaggerate the leg push and really try to delay the hip swing to try and force more work to legs but it usually has no impact as legs will feel fine. As far as layback I feel I go a little further than recommended but also feel it's more of an issue with my posture (I don't sit tall as I should) - unless it's very exaggerated it prob won't cost you too much efficiency. It's a lot of trial and error to see what works for you while also maintaining some of the basics. If you could get us a video we could really provide more detailed feedback.