Endurance erging - A place to discuss 42, 50, 100k upwards.

[Vcweiss346]

I knew my recent HM PB was soft, particularly in light of last week’s 60 min PB. So I attacked the HM hard today…

… and smashed my PB from a few weeks ago by another 1’38”…

Time Meters Pace Watts Cal/Hr S/M
1:22:37.0 21,097m 1:57.4 216 1042 23
19:43.8 5,000m 1:58.3 211 1026 23
19:36.8 5,000m 1:57.6 215 1039 23
19:36.6 5,000m 1:57.6 215 1039 23
19:33.1 5,000m 1:57.3 217 1046 24
4:06.7 1,097m 1:52.4 246 1147 26

I wanted to get sub 1:23 so loosely planned 4 x 5k negative splits 1.59.5, 1.58.5, 1.57.5, 1.56.5 and then a sprint final k. This plan went out of the window early though as I started out hard - maybe a bit too hard. Anyway I just battled to keep the pace flat for the 20k especially 5-20k. Managed to do it despite some grim moments and had enough in the tank to push the last 1.1k. This was pretty much at my current limit; maybe on my best day I could creep below 1:22:30.

In any event, I’m starting to get confident I can go sub 3 hours for the marathon but I do need to start doing longer training pieces at a more disciplined marathon pace. Otherwise I risk going out too hard and burning up. Less than a month to go!

Thats a really nice effort. Good luck with the FM

[RayOfSunshine]

I knew my recent HM PB was soft, particularly in light of last week’s 60 min PB. So I attacked the HM hard today…

… and smashed my PB from a few weeks ago by another 1’38”…

Time Meters Pace Watts Cal/Hr S/M
1:22:37.0 21,097m 1:57.4 216 1042 23
19:43.8 5,000m 1:58.3 211 1026 23
19:36.8 5,000m 1:57.6 215 1039 23
19:36.6 5,000m 1:57.6 215 1039 23
19:33.1 5,000m 1:57.3 217 1046 24
4:06.7 1,097m 1:52.4 246 1147 26

I wanted to get sub 1:23 so loosely planned 4 x 5k negative splits 1.59.5, 1.58.5, 1.57.5, 1.56.5 and then a sprint final k. This plan went out of the window early though as I started out hard - maybe a bit too hard. Anyway I just battled to keep the pace flat for the 20k especially 5-20k. Managed to do it despite some grim moments and had enough in the tank to push the last 1.1k. This was pretty much at my current limit; maybe on my best day I could creep below 1:22:30.

In any event, I’m starting to get confident I can go sub 3 hours for the marathon but I do need to start doing longer training pieces at a more disciplined marathon pace. Otherwise I risk going out too hard and burning up. Less than a month to go!

I hate it when a plan goes out the window due to coming out too hot. Nice recovery and way to push through the discomfort. Look forward to seeing you go sub 3hrs

[GlennUk]

I knew my recent HM PB was soft, particularly in light of last week’s 60 min PB. So I attacked the HM hard today…

… and smashed my PB from a few weeks ago by another 1’38”…

Time Meters Pace Watts Cal/Hr S/M
1:22:37.0 21,097m 1:57.4 216 1042 23
19:43.8 5,000m 1:58.3 211 1026 23
19:36.8 5,000m 1:57.6 215 1039 23
19:36.6 5,000m 1:57.6 215 1039 23
19:33.1 5,000m 1:57.3 217 1046 24
4:06.7 1,097m 1:52.4 246 1147 26

I wanted to get sub 1:23 so loosely planned 4 x 5k negative splits 1.59.5, 1.58.5, 1.57.5, 1.56.5 and then a sprint final k. This plan went out of the window early though as I started out hard - maybe a bit too hard. Anyway I just battled to keep the pace flat for the 20k especially 5-20k. Managed to do it despite some grim moments and had enough in the tank to push the last 1.1k. This was pretty much at my current limit; maybe on my best day I could creep below 1:22:30.

In any event, I’m starting to get confident I can go sub 3 hours for the marathon but I do need to start doing longer training pieces at a more disciplined marathon pace. Otherwise I risk going out too hard and burning up. Less than a month to go!

I just noticed there was a typo in my previous post re your pace, your split was was 12 seconds LOWER not slower, than a three hour pace, and this i 10 seconds lower/split than 3 hour pace for the FM.

Looking promising

[Dangerscouse]

I knew my recent HM PB was soft, particularly in light of last week’s 60 min PB. So I attacked the HM hard today…

… and smashed my PB from a few weeks ago by another 1’38”…

Time Meters Pace Watts Cal/Hr S/M
1:22:37.0 21,097m 1:57.4 216 1042 23
19:43.8 5,000m 1:58.3 211 1026 23
19:36.8 5,000m 1:57.6 215 1039 23
19:36.6 5,000m 1:57.6 215 1039 23
19:33.1 5,000m 1:57.3 217 1046 24
4:06.7 1,097m 1:52.4 246 1147 26

I wanted to get sub 1:23 so loosely planned 4 x 5k negative splits 1.59.5, 1.58.5, 1.57.5, 1.56.5 and then a sprint final k. This plan went out of the window early though as I started out hard - maybe a bit too hard. Anyway I just battled to keep the pace flat for the 20k especially 5-20k. Managed to do it despite some grim moments and had enough in the tank to push the last 1.1k. This was pretty much at my current limit; maybe on my best day I could creep below 1:22:30.

In any event, I’m starting to get confident I can go sub 3 hours for the marathon but I do need to start doing longer training pieces at a more disciplined marathon pace. Otherwise I risk going out too hard and burning up. Less than a month to go!

Great result Rob. Another layer of confidence added, along with the PB

[Elizabeth]

Rob, you got this. I got a sub-3 marathon with a similar half marathon. You don't necessarily need to do longer pieces at a marathon pace - I did all of my long rows in the UT2 zone including multiple 30-35k sessions at ballpark 2:10 pace, and then speed-work a couple of times a week that was much faster. You need to be okay with long, and okay with pain cave, but it may be easier to recover if you don't put the two together that frequently.

[RWAGR]

Thanks all and Elizabeth for the pacing/ recent experience!!

[aegis]

How do you know that you are ready for a FM? I can pretty much do a HM for a steady state session whenever i want but haven't done anything more than that.

Having ran both FM and HM before i know the pain/effort is exponential so I want to know if i need to try going up to 30km or something before trying for a FM? My main concern is butt pain.

Imo, you need to do a 30k, at least, if you want to know if you're ready. I always liked doing 32k. As you'll know, you're really training for the last 10k, but 32k will give you a good idea of how prepared you are.

Butt pain is very subjective, but when I did get it, it was prominent from about 45 minutes onwards, but it was never so awful that I couldn't endure it. Now, I don't ever get it for any distance, but that seemed to take a couple of years of training to reach that stage.

I just gave 32km a go, split into 4*8km with 45s water break. Kept to z2 first 3 intervals and went harder 2:14 pace for last 8km. Now i know its doable and the butt discomfort is manageable. Do people hit the wall in doing a FM like in running so you have to carbo load well ahead of attempting one? I pretty much juat had normal breakfast then did the 32km.

[Dangerscouse]

I just gave 32km a go, split into 4*8km with 45s water break. Kept to z2 first 3 intervals and went harder 2:14 pace for last 8km. Now i know its doable and the butt discomfort is manageable. Do people hit the wall in doing a FM like in running so you have to carbo load well ahead of attempting one? I pretty much juat had normal breakfast then did the 32km.

I'm not sure tbh. I've only ever hit the wall when I got to 82k into a 100k and that was due to very bad preparation.

I've always done 32k with only a banana and a strong coffee beforehand, and it's never been an issue. Theoretically, going past this will be risky, but it's not something I've ever dared try as I won't not do a FM if I go over 32k. We are all different, but I'd always recommend regularly taking on carbs / liquid when doing a FM.

I've never specifically carb loaded before an FM, I just make sure I have a decent amount of carbs in the days leading up to it, but nothing more than usual. I used to have a bowl of porridge beforehand in my early FMs, but now I'm not too bothered with having a carb breakfast, but that's just me and it's based on my experience so YMMV.

[Elizabeth]

I'm not the one to listen to for nutrition advice. Having said that, I haven't hit a wall the way that you hear of marathoners hitting a wall. I've forgotten to eat before a long row and had to get off 25k in to grab a snack, but I've never bonked. I also eat a pretty carb-rich diet in general, and just struggle with eating before/during rowing.

If I were to train for another long/hard effort (marathon or longer), I would approach fueling during training differently to build up an ability to handle pre- and mid-row fueling better.

[RWAGR]

Two very different sessions to report from the last week.

1. On Saturday, I attempted a long, steady row. I had in my head 30k or 32,195. It was a nightmare. I went out at 2.05/2.06 pace to be below 3hr FM pace. Cardio was not an issue. But early on my hamstrings started feeling bad. Soon joined by my arse and then new parts of my hands (even though I had taped my "usual" blister areas). It was the weirdest thing because at HM and even longer distances I have never had this type of hamstring and arse pain. Anyway, I ended up throwing in the towel at 24,602 meters. As you can see from the splits, this got progressively tougher. I've been scratching my head to figure out what went wrong: was it mental? I think not give the hamstring and arse issues were very real. But then why those physical issues? I could understand it if they came in after say 30k, but not at this distance. I'm not exaggerating when I say the hamstring issues actually caused me to have to stop as I was concerned about my recovery. Maybe this just goes to show what can go wrong on a bad day when attempting a FM. It was a real wake up call. Anyway, here is how it ended up:

Time Meters Pace Watts Cal S/M
1:43:04.5 24,602m 2:05.6 176 906 21
41:42.1 10,000m 2:05.1 179 915 21
41:58.3 10,000m 2:05.9 175 903 22
19:24.1 4,602m 2:06.4 173 895 22

2. A very different and much better story today. I wanted to bounce back strong so I set out to do another HM PB. I took another minute + off my PB (1'1.7" to be precise!). I felt strong throughout and sustained flat pacing for 15k, a very slight but not too noticeable increase 16-20k and a legit speedy final k including 500m sprint). No seat/ arse issues, and very little hamstring pain. It was like I was an entirely different person today, but I'm happy for it. I guess we need to wonder for the FM whether I will be in Dr. Jekyll or Mr. Hyde mode... Here is today's HM PB:

Time Meters Pace Watts Cal S/M
1:21:35.3 21,097m 1:56.0 224 1071 24
19:25.2 5,000m 1:56.5 221 1061 24
19:25.6 5,000m 1:56.5 221 1060 24
19:25.5 5,000m 1:56.5 221 1060 24
19:21.9 5,000m 1:56.1 223 1067 24
3:57.1 1,097m 1:48.0 277 1254 28

[aegis]

I just gave 32km a go, split into 4*8km with 45s water break. Kept to z2 first 3 intervals and went harder 2:14 pace for last 8km. Now i know its doable and the butt discomfort is manageable. Do people hit the wall in doing a FM like in running so you have to carbo load well ahead of attempting one? I pretty much juat had normal breakfast then did the 32km.

I'm not sure tbh. I've only ever hit the wall when I got to 82k into a 100k and that was due to very bad preparation.

I've always done 32k with only a banana and a strong coffee beforehand, and it's never been an issue. Theoretically, going past this will be risky, but it's not something I've ever dared try as I won't not do a FM if I go over 32k. We are all different, but I'd always recommend regularly taking on carbs / liquid when doing a FM.

I've never specifically carb loaded before an FM, I just make sure I have a decent amount of carbs in the days leading up to it, but nothing more than usual. I used to have a bowl of porridge beforehand in my early FMs, but now I'm not too bothered with having a carb breakfast, but that's just me and it's based on my experience so YMMV.

I'm not the one to listen to for nutrition advice. Having said that, I haven't hit a wall the way that you hear of marathoners hitting a wall. I've forgotten to eat before a long row and had to get off 25k in to grab a snack, but I've never bonked. I also eat a pretty carb-rich diet in general, and just struggle with eating before/during rowing.

If I were to train for another long/hard effort (marathon or longer), I would approach fueling during training differently to build up an ability to handle pre- and mid-row fueling better.

Thanks for the advice! Maybe I'll go buy some energy gels amd test how my body reacts the next time i try anything more than 30km. Glutes are a little sore today but probably back to normal tomorrow. I can't imagine how you guys can maintain a pace faster than my 2k pace for these long rows!

[Dangerscouse]

Thanks for the advice! Maybe I'll go buy some energy gels amd test how my body reacts the next time i try anything more than 30km. Glutes are a little sore today but probably back to normal tomorrow. I can't imagine how you guys can maintain a pace faster than my 2k pace for these long rows!

Be careful of energy gels, and I'm not sure if I've mentioned this already, but SIS gels give me stomach ache, so I have to avoid them despite them being very popular.

The pace does improve with practice and confidence, but I'm lucky as I'm suited to this sort of stuff and I think my background of basketball from a young age has shaped my general fitness foundations.

[Vcweiss346]

Thanks for the advice! Maybe I'll go buy some energy gels amd test how my body reacts the next time i try anything more than 30km. Glutes are a little sore today but probably back to normal tomorrow. I can't imagine how you guys can maintain a pace faster than my 2k pace for these long rows!

Be careful of energy gels, and I'm not sure if I've mentioned this already, but SIS gels give me stomach ache, so I have to avoid them despite them being very popular.

The pace does improve with practice and confidence, but I'm lucky as I'm suited to this sort of stuff and I think my background of basketball from a young age has shaped my general fitness foundations.

Having completed a bunch of ultra distance type events….and had some epic failures in there….the times I failed is when I didn’t prepare an eating and hydration plan. It’s just as important as the physical training component in race preparation. Train how you are going to eat/drink, how much you are going to eat/drink, and what you are going to eat and drink. I tend to like to just wing it, or go by feel, or guess. Im not very structured. But my biggest failures came with no plan and my best successes I had a solid plan.

[Elizabeth]

Training sessions are a great time to test different fueling options and see what works for your body.

[iain]

Two very different sessions to report from the last week.

1. On Saturday, I attempted a long, steady row. I had in my head 30k or 32,195. It was a nightmare. I went out at 2.05/2.06 pace to be below 3hr FM pace. Cardio was not an issue. But early on my hamstrings started feeling bad. Soon joined by my arse and then new parts of my hands (even though I had taped my "usual" blister areas).

2. A very different and much better story today. I wanted to bounce back strong so I set out to do another HM PB. I took another minute + off my PB (1'1.7" to be precise!). I felt strong throughout

I note that your work per stroke on attempt was 8% below that on attempt 2 despite the lower rating. To me this suggests that your muscles may have been tired before the attempt. Was this after ramping up distance in the previous week or so? On longer rows I have to fight against a tendency for my rating to slow. Without monitoring I will slow the stroke and compensate by doing more work per stroke. This then comes back to bite me later with a similar experience to your first row above, although if you upped the work per stroke and still dropped it that much it suggests that you were not rested enough for the attempt.

Only "bonked" once on an FM when I was called away when about to start and ended up doing it after not eating for 6 hours! That said, have never gone over 30k without carb drinks, but endorse the advice above. If the drinks are too concentrated has a horrible effect on your stomach and most people prefer to dilute the energy drinks.

Congratulations on the HM PB. That was a great row.

- Iain