"but in reality anything from 20mins in duration is beneficial as aerobic work"

General discussion on Training. How to get better on your erg, how to use your erg to get better at another sport, or anything else about improving your abilities.
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Bow
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"but in reality anything from 20mins in duration is beneficial as aerobic work"

Post by Bow » February 20th, 2023, 6:25 pm

"Steady distance work: I say 10k+ for the distance of these sessions, but in reality anything from 20mins in duration is beneficial as aerobic work." @ https://thepeteplan.wordpress.com/5k-training/

So is there any evidence to read? I mean if there is only a improvement bei 1-2% if i row 1h instead of maybe 30min - so why do that ;-).
I know former knowledge - "more is more" - but whats really the deal? can we improve (can i achieve my goal viewtopic.php?t=206534 ) with just rowing about 30 Min. aerobic and the rest "hard" https://thepeteplan.wordpress.com/5k-training/ ) ?

MPx
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Re: "but in reality anything from 20mins in duration is beneficial as aerobic work"

Post by MPx » February 20th, 2023, 7:30 pm

Your goal is 8k in 30 mins? If so, perfectly doable IMO, but just rowing "up to" 30 mins is unlikely to get you there. It will always define the upper edge of your seat time so doing that (but faster for a TT) will just seem impossible. You need intervals faster to get used to a faster pace, you need long intervals on pace so that you've seen you can go further as fast as you want to go....and you need longer than 30 mins in one hit, so that 30 mins doesn't seem to be at the extreme of what's possible. Your fitness will improve by stressing your body into making adaptations, but your belief/confidence will only come when your eyes have been opened to what is possible for you to do.
Mike - 67 HWT 183

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Tsnor
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Re: "but in reality anything from 20mins in duration is beneficial as aerobic work"

Post by Tsnor » February 21st, 2023, 12:15 am

Lots of evidence that performance scales with hours spent working out aerobically. Both athlete journals and formal studies. Example: https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... e_Athletes

Progressive overload is key. If you do 20 mins, then goto 30, 40, 50. You stagnate if you do the same thing. A couch potato would see a large benefit from 20 mins workout. Most trained athletes would want 45 minutes minimum. Increase duration in a slow, orderly way. Doubling overnight just causes stress on your body that precludes the benefits you want.

At elite levels aerobic workouts can get crazy. Gold Medal 5K and 10K Swedish speed skater Nils van der Poel cranks 6 hours of aerobic training a day (30+ hours per week). "For the “Aerobic Season 2.0,” van der Poel does six hours at 210w (2.5w/kg) from Monday through Thursday, with just one 10k skating session on Friday followed by three hours on the bike at 210w. " https://www.velonews.com/training/this- ... -per-week/ (for ref, van der Pol's 1 hour power (FTP) cycling is 390-420w, so the 6 hours at 210 watts is likely below his lactate threshold).

iain
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Re: "but in reality anything from 20mins in duration is beneficial as aerobic work"

Post by iain » February 21st, 2023, 4:29 am

At the elite level 1-2% is all that is available! I have read that sessions around an hour or more are required for your aerobic fibres to fatigue sufficiently that you are forced to recruit the anaerobic fibres at steady state (eg Mike on the WP thread). Whether this induces adaptions not brought on by longer harder intervals I cannot say. I definitely feel that something gets harder 40-45 min in even when I was trained for ultra marathons. Fitness advice for the sedentry is to get the HR raised for 20 min+ at a time, so as HR takes several min to adjust at slower paces you wouldn't even be meeting that, so I assume that longer is required.

The other changes that happen overtime include a shift to higher fat burning that I believe takes 20 min or so to click in, although as this is insignificant for any TT below FM, it may not be important for your goals. Personally I am yet to see convincing evidence that the predominantly slower training adopted by elite athletes is appropriate in a less intensive training program. Many quote that peripheral adaptions (eg increased capilliarisation of muscles) only occurs through slower training, but I am yet to see the research that backs that up. Yes slower training is sufficient to allow this to occur, but regular hard sessions might be as effective. Certainly the main explanation for the elite training is that it allows a greater training volume and the body to recover from the hard sessions to train harder for key sessions. However this can be achieved in a less frequent training program by limiting hard sessions to 2 - 3 per week rather than the 20% (less than 1 per week for some of us) that is often quoted. I would be very interested in any research that contradicts this.

Finally, metabolically between the initial sugar fuelled work and the introduction of fat burning the body needs to adapt to longer term exercise by releasing more sugar from the liver to supplement reserves in muscles as well as the lactate shift to allow the products of anaerobic fibres to be used by the aerobic ones. I don't know how quickly these click in, but they will be important for 5k+ if not before and I assume that this needs to be trained.

All that said, I still think that a lot of training is done above the neck and so as MPx says, it is imperative that race distance is seen as a short workout. We all know how long a 2k seems to drag out. As it is not advisable to do regular all out 2ks, getting used to pushing on for mins on complaining muscles when your body is claiming to be suffocating gets easier when you have pushed through many similar periods at lower intensity in training (generally long intervals). I find that long slow sessions help to push the long intervals harder by making the distances involved appear modest as you get used to pushing the pace when you "only" have 10 min to go regularly, seeing 1200 of a 2k left seems more manageable. Finally, there is a lot of research showing that the "grey zone" training most of us would naturally settle into is much less effective than training that allows some sessions close to maximal (by allowing recovery) and that I for one see both power and endurance drop off when I train at higher paces more than a couple of times a week. A 20 min session without pushing into the grey would not feel like a decent workout for me, so I will continue to do 1 hr+ sessions whenever I can fit them in! But the long and short of it is that there is not the resources to study training effects in the reasonably fit, all the money is for those saving lives by addressing couch potatoes or creating prestige with the elites! So we will always be a little in the dark!
56, lightweight in pace and by gravity. Currently training 3-4 times a week after a break to slowly regain the pitiful fitness I achieved a few years ago. Free Spirit, come join us http://www.freespiritsrowing.com/forum/

Bow
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Re: "but in reality anything from 20mins in duration is beneficial as aerobic work"

Post by Bow » February 21st, 2023, 5:07 am

It's not about abbreviating all sessions for me, but "only" the long, slow ones.

"If you are looking for a “lighter” version of the above training plan comprising only 3 sessions per week, and with a lower duration per session, look no further than Pete Plan 2007 Lite, below:"
there the plan was only reduced by the aerobic ones. And hence the consideration "but in reality anything from 20mins in duration is beneficial as aerobic work" if that would be enough.

In summer the gravel bike is more likely to be used than the indoor rower - so that would also be an option - aerobic on the bike and sprints etc. on the rower.

And it was just a consideration - the Sport Elite train completely different scopes, of course, but this is about hobby athletes ;-)

iain
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Re: "but in reality anything from 20mins in duration is beneficial as aerobic work"

Post by iain » February 21st, 2023, 11:24 am

In the context that the PP was a cut down WP designed to fit into Pete's lunchtime (ie maximising the benefit of limited time), I read the 20 min comment not to mean that less has little effect, just that it is better to add any 20+ min session than omit it because there isn't time for 10k+. In addition PP presumes UT1 intensity aerobic sessions while most coaches would advocate UT2 as a base, so I don't think that these comments should carry great weight in any event as merely one respected athletes opinion.
56, lightweight in pace and by gravity. Currently training 3-4 times a week after a break to slowly regain the pitiful fitness I achieved a few years ago. Free Spirit, come join us http://www.freespiritsrowing.com/forum/

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