Is this zone 2 ?

[rainman]

Have you tried this calculator?

https://www.freespiritsrowing.com/forum ... calculator

I'm not really sure what you mean with Zone 2 but an average HR of 153 and above would be in the upper range of UT1 in my HR zones.

That calculator is surely wrong? For example, it gives me "Your 85% heart rate is 162 bpm.". My max HR is 180. 85% of 180 is 153. All the other bands are way above what they should be too.

[HornetMaX]

Have you tried this calculator?

https://www.freespiritsrowing.com/forum ... calculator

I'm not really sure what you mean with Zone 2 but an average HR of 153 and above would be in the upper range of UT1 in my HR zones.

That calculator is surely wrong? For example, it gives me "Your 85% heart rate is 162 bpm.". My max HR is 180. 85% of 180 is 153. All the other bands are way above what they should be too.

Not wrong, it's 85% of the hear rate reserve (HRR), i.e. the difference of your max and rest HR (added of course to your rest HR).

So if your max is 200 and your rest is 60, your reserve is 140, 50% of that is 70 and your 70% HR is 60+70=130 (which is not 70% of 200).

[rainman]

Have you tried this calculator?

https://www.freespiritsrowing.com/forum ... calculator

I'm not really sure what you mean with Zone 2 but an average HR of 153 and above would be in the upper range of UT1 in my HR zones.

That calculator is surely wrong? For example, it gives me "Your 85% heart rate is 162 bpm.". My max HR is 180. 85% of 180 is 153. All the other bands are way above what they should be too.

Not wrong, it's 85% of the hear rate reserve (HRR), i.e. the difference of your max and rest HR (added of course to your rest HR).

So if your max is 200 and your rest is 60, your reserve is 140, 50% of that is 70 and your 70% HR is 60+70=130 (which is not 70% of 200).

That is very different from the majority of advice I've read about Zone2/UT2 which suggests 60-70% of my max HR.

For example, the calculator says: "Your UT2 band is a heart rate of 125 bpm to 143 bpm with a mean of 134 bpm."

But if I followed majority of advice for zone 2 / UT2 I'd be looking at 108 to 125 bpm. Very different.

So who is right?

[Tsnor]

EDIT: FWIW British Rowing trainers set Cameron Buchan's long/slow HR to 65% max HR = 135 somewhat below what formulas would predict for top of range for 200-203 max HR. https://youtu.be/XWKMG__UVQo?t=70 Assuming a 50 resting heart rate, the HRR formula in the free spirit calculator gives "UT2 band is a heart rate of 134 bpm to 156 bpm with a mean of 145 bpm." If Cameron B targeted the high end 156 or even the average he'd be cooked in a few months. BEWARE blindly following formula.

(Cameron B's best 2K was a 5:49. He is a strong rower, and rows for the British national team. His training is monitored by the best coaches/trainers. The 135 HR for long/slow was state of the art for where he should train.)

===

It's not 100% clear that the UT2 (long slow) defined by rowing and implemented in this calculator is the same as the HR zone designed to keep you be below the first lactate threshold.

For your long slow results to match the study and athlete reported results you need to be below the first lactate threshold. (Also below the first ventilatory threshold which seems to be appearing a bit).

For people with a high resting HR (especially those just starting out) the Heart Rate Reserve formula will bias the HR range high, exactly the opposite of what you want. The technique you use to find your resting heart rate also swings this formula. Picking the HR when you first wake up can give you a 4-5 beat lower resting heart rate than what the 24x7 HR tracking watches give you, which will give you lower HR for your training zones. Net use a big grain of salt with HR ranges -- you can always find someone's formula (% HRR, % max HR, %watts vs 1 hour power, % watts vs 5% of 20 min power, 60-75% of 40 minute rowing power, etc. ) that makes your zone appear higher or lower without changing your body's actual behavior.

Key is keeping your long slow comfortably below the max for the zone, not pressing the upper edge of the zone. At the max value one more beat per second is enough to put you in the next zone. But the formulas are not that accurate, so for some people keeping one or two below beats/sec below the zone max is already into the next zone.

Use Heart Rate drift and other cross checks to make sure you are not going too hard, or discard the zone 2 approach and hit your workout harder. There is no value is being close to but just above the first lactate threshold -- your body still goes into "flight/fight mode" instead of "rebuild, get stronger" mode. (Note the evidence for this is soft. Many sources claim it, but it could be echo chamber effect. See "concurrent training interference effect", etc.)

[Dangerscouse]

That is very different from the majority of advice I've read about Zone2/UT2 which suggests 60-70% of my max HR.

For example, the calculator says: "Your UT2 band is a heart rate of 125 bpm to 143 bpm with a mean of 134 bpm."

But if I followed majority of advice for zone 2 / UT2 I'd be looking at 108 to 125 bpm. Very different.

So who is right?

I have found that circa 70-72% works well for me, maybe increasing up close to 75%. 60-65% is far too low imo, and I'll never use that. High 60s is as low as I want to go, but you need to make sure you do the hard work too, otherwise it's a bit of a waste of time.

Just to add to your confusion I know of very good rowers who use 80% as their threshold, and I think that Nick (Rockliff) is one of them.

Unfortunately there is no one size fits all, and whatever works for them, understandably, will be what they suggest is best: hence why you're seeing a big difference.

If you're a newbie you need to play around with different strategies and see what feels right. If it feels good, and you feel recovered when you want to go again, it's probably where you want to be. We're not professionals, so enjoyment, imho, is a massive part of your decision making too.

[Spinal]

EDIT: FWIW British Rowing trainers set Cameron Buchan's long/slow HR to 65% max HR = 135 somewhat below what formulas would predict for top of range for 200-203 max HR. https://youtu.be/XWKMG__UVQo?t=70 Assuming a 50 resting heart rate, the HRR formula in the free spirit calculator gives "UT2 band is a heart rate of 134 bpm to 156 bpm with a mean of 145 bpm." If Cameron B targeted the high end 156 or even the average he'd be cooked in a few months. BEWARE blindly following formula.

(Cameron B's best 2K was a 5:49. He is a strong rower, and rows for the British national team. His training is monitored by the best coaches/trainers. The 135 HR for long/slow was state of the art for where he should train.)

===

It's not 100% clear that the UT2 (long slow) defined by rowing and implemented in this calculator is the same as the HR zone designed to keep you be below the first lactate threshold.

For your long slow results to match the study and athlete reported results you need to be below the first lactate threshold. (Also below the first ventilatory threshold which seems to be appearing a bit).

For people with a high resting HR (especially those just starting out) the Heart Rate Reserve formula will bias the HR range high, exactly the opposite of what you want. The technique you use to find your resting heart rate also swings this formula. Picking the HR when you first wake up can give you a 4-5 beat lower resting heart rate than what the 24x7 HR tracking watches give you, which will give you lower HR for your training zones. Net use a big grain of salt with HR ranges -- you can always find someone's formula (% HRR, % max HR, %watts vs 1 hour power, % watts vs 5% of 20 min power, 60-75% of 40 minute rowing power, etc. ) that makes your zone appear higher or lower without changing your body's actual behavior.

Key is keeping your long slow comfortably below the max for the zone, not pressing the upper edge of the zone. At the max value one more beat per second is enough to put you in the next zone. But the formulas are not that accurate, so for some people keeping one or two below beats/sec below the zone max is already into the next zone.

Use Heart Rate drift and other cross checks to make sure you are not going too hard, or discard the zone 2 approach and hit your workout harder. There is no value is being close to but just above the first lactate threshold -- your body still goes into "flight/fight mode" instead of "rebuild, get stronger" mode. (Note the evidence for this is soft. Many sources claim it, but it could be echo chamber effect. See "concurrent training interference effect", etc.)

Eric Murray ‐

"That includes thousands of kilometres a year at a pretty decent intensity on the erg and the knowledge behind that intensity. That means trying to hit 80 per cent in my UT2 zone, at around a heart rate of 160-165. Then I’m looking at 1.44s on the machine. It comes down to years of grind to enable me to hit those numbers"

https://worldrowing.com//2016/02/02/eri ... or-rowing/

"In the build-up to London, Hamish and I would do an hour next to each other. I’d peek across at his monitor; he might look across at mine. You have to know that Hamish is like a machine, especially at the UT2 stuff on the erg. I try to keep up. We always finish within a couple of seconds, or meters of each other. Sometimes he might be a bit tired and I think: ‘sweet, I’m going to be able to beat him"

Doesn't sound like UT2 was about taking it easy

[nick rockliff]

That is very different from the majority of advice I've read about Zone2/UT2 which suggests 60-70% of my max HR.

For example, the calculator says: "Your UT2 band is a heart rate of 125 bpm to 143 bpm with a mean of 134 bpm."

But if I followed majority of advice for zone 2 / UT2 I'd be looking at 108 to 125 bpm. Very different.

So who is right?

I have found that circa 70-72% works well for me, maybe increasing up close to 75%. 60-65% is far too low imo, and I'll never use that. High 60s is as low as I want to go, but you need to make sure you do the hard work too, otherwise it's a bit of a waste of time.

Just to add to your confusion I know of very good rowers who use 80% as their threshold, and I think that Nick (Rockliff) is one of them.

Unfortunately there is no one size fits all, and whatever works for them, understandably, will be what they suggest is best: hence why you're seeing a big difference.

If you're a newbie you need to play around with different strategies and see what feels right. If it feels good, and you feel recovered when you want to go again, it's probably where you want to be. We're not professionals, so enjoyment, imho, is a massive part of your decision making too.

Stu, my UT2 HR cap was 154 which was 89% of my V02MAX derived Max HR.

I always used a HR cap, never a % of anything nor did I ever work to an average HR.

When a UT2 zone is defined correctly, it isn't easy.

[HornetMaX]

It's not 100% clear that the UT2 (long slow) defined by rowing and implemented in this calculator is the same as the HR zone designed to keep you be below the first lactate threshold.

That's my understanding too. UT2 is not necessarily zone 2.

I suspect just fixing this (i.e what does zone2 correspond to in a UT2/UT1/AT/TR/AN scale) would already greatly clarify for noobs like me.

[Tsnor]

Eric Murray ‐

"That includes thousands of kilometres a year at a pretty decent intensity on the erg and the knowledge behind that intensity. That means trying to hit 80 per cent in my UT2 zone, at around a heart rate of 160-165. Then I’m looking at 1.44s on the machine. It comes down to years of grind to enable me to hit those numbers"

Hard to argue with Eric Murray's results. Erg and OTW.

I found a video of him doing 40 secs on, 20 seconds off when coach had us doing those as a 2K predictor. Two neat things.
First the erg would FLEX on his drive. He didn't even look like he was pulling hard. Second he set up a dummy initial interval so he NEVER hit the erg with the flywheel stopped. Each of the 40 seconds on intervals had 10 seconds or so of getting the flywheel up to speed during the rest meters of the pervious interval.

Stylistically, he advocates a softer catch then hammering it at the middle of the drive when the hips/back swing which is the stroke I'm trying to get (currently I'm more front loaded and don't think that's good).

He has a 6 free week training plan with asensei. It's all about peaking intensity4 days/week no base aerobic at all. https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0017/ ... 1669918196 Not something I would follow for year round. Might be a good plan for the last 6 weeks before a race or PB attempt. Think he said his pair averaged rowing 200-300K per week when he trained, which is a very different plan.

[Tsnor]

I have found that circa 70-72% works well for me, maybe increasing up close to 75%.

Me too, I target 125 and hard cap at 130 which is target 71% cap 73%. I do appreciate people posting their workouts, and am amazed at the work they can survive.

Just to add to your confusion I know of very good rowers who use 80% as their threshold, and I think that Nick (Rockliff) is one of them.

Unfortunately there is no one size fits all, and whatever works for them, understandably, will be what they suggest is best: hence why you're seeing a big difference.

If you're a newbie you need to play around with different strategies and see what feels right. If it feels good, and you feel recovered when you want to go again, it's probably where you want to be. We're not professionals, so enjoyment, imho, is a massive part of your decision making too.

^^^^ This, plus if you are working hard learn the signs of too much and look for them. Change something if you see resting heart rate rising, HRV falling, performance failing, you are getting sick and your motivation to row disappears.

[Spinal]

I found a video of him doing 40 secs on, 20 seconds off when coach had us doing those as a 2K predictor. Two neat things.
First the erg would FLEX on his drive. He didn't even look like he was pulling hard. Second he set up a dummy initial interval so he NEVER hit the erg with the flywheel stopped. Each of the 40 seconds on intervals had 10 seconds or so of getting the flywheel up to speed during the rest meters of the pervious interval.

I think I've watched the same video
https://youtu.be/36i0-QNXujk

Stylistically, he advocates a softer catch then hammering it at the middle of the drive when the hips/back swing which is the stroke I'm trying to get (currently I'm more front loaded and don't think that's good).

The guys at Decent Rowing are all about a hard snappy leg drive where Eric as you say promotes a much softer connection at the front with maximum power applied when the legs are finishing and the back is opening. On the recovery he doesn't like the legs staying down too long so that it creates an unnecessary pull and fatigue on the hamstrings.

If you're a newbie you need to play around with different strategies and see what feels right. If it feels good, and you feel recovered when you want to go again, it's probably where you want to be. We're not professionals, so enjoyment, imho, is a massive part of your decision making too.

Summed it up perfectly.

[p_b82]

While I am not doing daily/high frequency sessions, so my overall load isn't as much of a factor, I have found that I'm more aligned with the % HR Reserve figures than max % figures.

158bpm = 75% my HRR ((189-65)x.75))+65; I can hold that for hours without too much difficulty at all - the physical muscle fatigue is the limiting factor not my CV system at that rate. ERG data has this as Zone 4 for me.

I can work right up to 90% HRR (~175bpm) before things start to get tough from a CV side & I can hold that for an hour - again muscle fatigue is the limiting factor. (ergdata's zone 5 is 170 and up).

What I have realised is that to keep my HR below 160, I'm really not using a "good" rowing stroke, I'm consciously leaving effort out the leg drive, minimising my hip swing and not engaging the arms at all; and while that's really relaxing while I listen to music, I don't think it is that good for the muscle memory for the harder efforts.

I really should put my HR belt on and hook it up to my phone when I go hiking, as I don't hand around on the flat - I'm always sweating, and a conversation would have to be timed around breaths; and I keep that up for typically 3-4 hours - I reckon it's probably 80-85% HRR most that time.