Tried zone2 for a month, something unxepected happenend

[HornetMaX]

Whatever method you use, the expectation of improvements in ones performance must be realistic and when following particular method there must be time to see those improvements. Basically IMHO< two weeks doesn't seem particularly long to decide whether a plan has merit or not.

That's what surprised me: I did see a very visible drop over 4 weeks.
Now I'm curious to see if I can get back to the past level as fast. I guess not, because Murphy's law

[Sakly]

Whatever method you use, the expectation of improvements in ones performance must be realistic and when following particular method there must be time to see those improvements. Basically IMHO< two weeks doesn't seem particularly long to decide whether a plan has merit or not.

That's what surprised me: I did see a very visible drop over 4 weeks.
Now I'm curious to see if I can get back to the past level as fast. I guess not, because Murphy's law

Probably the drop had other reasons beside changing the training approach. Performance is not only depending on training.
And from my experience performance does not drop significantly fast if you train consistently even worth lower intensity. But this is my personal experience.

[GlennUk]

Whatever method you use, the expectation of improvements in ones performance must be realistic and when following particular method there must be time to see those improvements. Basically IMHO< two weeks doesn't seem particularly long to decide whether a plan has merit or not.

That's what surprised me: I did see a very visible drop over 4 weeks.
Now I'm curious to see if I can get back to the past level as fast. I guess not, because Murphy's law

I suspect it would drop if your training intensity was too low which i think if i understood correctly was the point that James was making?

[mromero680]

I've found my results have been very similar. All the hype about low intensity training might be warranted for those spending way more hours training per week than I'm able to. I'm able to do about four hours per week rowing and three weight workouts per week. At that volume, the only way I improve is by doing mostly interval type training. Doing LSD just gets me good at going slow.

[Sakly]

I've found my results have been very similar. All the hype about low intensity training might be warranted for those spending way more hours training per week than I'm able to. I'm able to do about four hours per week rowing and three weight workouts per week. At that volume, the only way I improve is by doing mostly interval type training. Doing LSD just gets me good at going slow.

It's the same volume on my side. 4h rowing turns into ca. 60km. 3 gym sessions are the point. They can be very stressful or light training - and that makes the difference. My gym sessions are all high load/high intensity, so my rows cannot be the same intensity as 7 sessions with high intensity would burn me. It's not the volume alone, it's also the intensity of the volume done.

[HornetMaX]

Doing LSD just gets me good at going slow.

And for me, not even that. I'm getting worse even at going long&slow (or so it seems).

Anyway, I guess that, set aside other hidden causes, the provided explanation (no need for "zone2" if you only train 4-5hrs/week at reasonable intensities) makes sense. Back to harder(-ish) work now

[jamesg]

Now I'm curious to see if I can get back to the past level as fast.

No problem, so long as you keep your Work (=Watts/Rating) close to your 2k test level, at all ratings.

I work at just over 6W' @ 20-22 for 20-25km a week and it let me TT even at 8W' for pieces up to 1k.

This approach does not require very long pieces and is similar to work afloat. You can't sit in a boat and not pull hard.

[HornetMaX]

No problem, so long as you keep your Work (=Watts/Rating) close to your 2k test level, at all ratings.

Hmm, average watts divided by average stroke rate gives the average work (J) per stroke. Can this be really kept constant across very different distances (e.g. between 500m / 2K / Half-Marathon) ? I know I can't, for sure.

[GlennUk]

Whatever method you use, the expectation of improvements in ones performance must be realistic and when following particular method there must be time to see those improvements. Basically IMHO< two weeks doesn't seem particularly long to decide whether a plan has merit or not.

That's what surprised me: I did see a very visible drop over 4 weeks.
Now I'm curious to see if I can get back to the past level as fast. I guess not, because Murphy's law

No ones is disputing you have seen a drop, perhaps the better question is why did you see a drop?

Was it because you didn't perform the training correctly, was it because the training doesn't work, was it something else, or perhaps a combination of several factors?

A quick google of the question does UT2 training work reveals some better qualified than me to suggest it may have benefits.

https://www.scottish-rowing.org.uk/news ... gher%20end.

https://teaching.shu.ac.uk/hwb/sport/te ... ining.html

These are just two of the first few.

Sometimes perseverance and practice are key to achievement, whatever method you choose to adopt.

[Sakly]

No problem, so long as you keep your Work (=Watts/Rating) close to your 2k test level, at all ratings.

Hmm, average watts divided by average stroke rate gives the average work (J) per stroke. Can this be really kept constant across very different distances (e.g. between 500m / 2K / Half-Marathon) ? I know I can't, for sure.

Yes it can. Change your point of view and read again what James wrote.
If your 2k test level is a 300W/7min at rating 30 you get a 10W-stroke. If you rate 20 you get a 2:00 split which is quite challenging, but you can keep that for much longer than 7min, probably for a HM.
For shorter distances you would rate higher with the same stroke power, probably 40 for 500m, so you get 400W and faster times.

My steady stroke power is around 9W+, I can keep that for 2h+. That does not mean that I cannot create harder strokes at shorter distances with the same rating (12W+ at 39min PB), but I cannot maintain them for long.

[HornetMaX]

No ones is disputing you have seen a drop, perhaps the better question is why did you see a drop?

Was it because you didn't perform the training correctly, was it because the training doesn't work, was it something else, or perhaps a combination of several factors?

And I'm not disputing UT2/zone2 can be useful, of course. Just saying that it didn't seem to work in my situation.
Why ? I can't say. Could be because (as said by others) my training load is low anyway, or maybe because I lack power more than endurance, or both or something else.

But I can't really see how I could have done it not correctly: volume of zone2 was in the ballpark of what is recommended, intensity seemed right (HR close to what is usually recommended, no HR drift over time etc).

Hmm, average watts divided by average stroke rate gives the average work (J) per stroke. Can this be really kept constant across very different distances (e.g. between 500m / 2K / Half-Marathon) ? I know I can't, for sure.

Yes it can. Change your point of view and read again what James wrote.
If your 2k test level is a 300W/7min at rating 30 you get a 10W-stroke. If you rate 20 you get a 2:00 split which is quite challenging, but you can keep that for much longer than 7min, probably for a HM.
For shorter distances you would rate higher with the same stroke power, probably 40 for 500m, so you get 400W and faster times.

My steady stroke power is around 9W+, I can keep that for 2h+. That does not mean that I cannot create harder strokes at shorter distances with the same rating (12W+ at 39min PB), but I cannot maintain them for long.

If I take my 500m/1K/2k/5K/10K/HM PBs I get respectively 9.7 / 9.1 / 8.1 / 8.5 / 8.3 / 7.8 W-stroke. So not very constant for me (but it could be my fault, of course, and the drag factor was not the same across the board). A last slow zone2 HM had 7.3W-stroke.

Curious: what're your numbers ?

[Sakly]

Hmm, average watts divided by average stroke rate gives the average work (J) per stroke. Can this be really kept constant across very different distances (e.g. between 500m / 2K / Half-Marathon) ? I know I can't, for sure.

Yes it can. Change your point of view and read again what James wrote.
If your 2k test level is a 300W/7min at rating 30 you get a 10W-stroke. If you rate 20 you get a 2:00 split which is quite challenging, but you can keep that for much longer than 7min, probably for a HM.
For shorter distances you would rate higher with the same stroke power, probably 40 for 500m, so you get 400W and faster times.

My steady stroke power is around 9W+, I can keep that for 2h+. That does not mean that I cannot create harder strokes at shorter distances with the same rating (12W+ at 39min PB), but I cannot maintain them for long.

If I take my 500m/1K/2k/5K/10K/HM PBs I get respectively 9.7 / 9.1 / 8.1 / 8.5 / 8.3 / 7.8 W-stroke. So not very constant for me (but it could be my fault, of course, and the drag factor was not the same across the board). A last slow zone2 HM had 7.3W-stroke.

Curious: what're your numbers ?

If I take your 2k wattage as reference (as said before), then you see very near values for higher distances (+-0.3-0.4). So you prove the correctness of the explanation.
Shorter distances fall a bit out of scope, as one typically can create a higher force for shorter stuff, besides higher rating anyway.
I did not calculate my numbers and most of the longer distances are a bit out of date in terms of PBs. But if interested I could calculate them (my log is open to everyone).

[HornetMaX]

If I take your 2k wattage as reference (as said before), then you see very near values for higher distances (+-0.3-0.4). So you prove the correctness of the explanation.
Shorter distances fall a bit out of scope, as one typically can create a higher force for shorter stuff, besides higher rating anyway.

Well, PBs are sort of all out (keeping distance into account), guess not every training session has to be all out. 8.1 (2K PB) vs 7.2 (HM zone2) is quite a lot of change. At any rate, if one is rowing shorter intervals (like 500m or something) then this breaks down.

I did not calculate my numbers and most of the longer distances are a bit out of date in terms of PBs. But if interested I could calculate them (my log is open to everyone).

Yeah but one can only access your log and not your PBs (or filter over a season by distance/duration etc). Just realized this, very annoying.

[jamesg]

Can this be really kept constant across very different distances (e.g. between 500m / 2K / Half-Marathon) ?

It's a decision. Pull a good stroke whatever, you can't go wrong.

If training for racing, a possible idea, for the C2 erg that makes the data available, is to develop and use in training, and so train, the stroke that you will need in that race. It won't just happen, but at least the arithmetic is simple.

This is what Polar says about Zone training:
An effective running plan or workout plan will include different types of workouts with varying frequency, duration, and intensity spaced out so that you have time to recover. This means that some workouts should be short and intense, some long and light, some can even be long and tough. It’s the variety that makes your workout regimen effective.

[Sakly]

Yeah but one can only access your log and not your PBs (or filter over a season by distance/duration etc). Just realized this, very annoying.

Oh, that doesn't make sense, but anyway, I calculated some numbers (also for own interest):

Code: Select all

Type row	Time	Strokes	Rate	Wattage	Average/Stroke	HR av
Steady 10k	41,43	798	19,26	182	9,45		137
Steady 1h	60,00	1207	20,12	171	8,50		131
Steady 2h	120,00	no data	19,50	180	9,23		146
30r20 PB	30,00	600	20,00	248	12,40		172
30min PB	30,00	895	29,83	273	9,15		172
500m PB 	1,49	64	43,00	491	11,42		164
1k PB   	3,23	105	32,47	383	11,79		167
2k PB   	6,78	205	30,26	333	11,01		171
5k PB   	17,95	583	32,49	280	8,62		174
10k PB  	36,98	1124	30,40	256	8,42		175

I added recent steady state/long trainings to show average stroke power of current trainings and also av HR to compare effort of the rows. As I change the effort level a bit in the trainings, you see that standard 10k is around 9,5W/stroke with a HR <140 which should be UT2 for me.
I can maintain this stroke for 2h, but HR starts drifting after an hour.

5k and 10k are not really valid to compare as they are 1. a bit old and do not show my current potential, 2. I made them with higher rate to test the difference to lower rates for longer distances, same applies for my recent 30min PB, but it shows the improvement of the stroke power as it is newer and comparable to the recent long trainings. You see that the stroke power is quite the same, but due to higher rating for 30min the effort is much higher, so I am done after 30mins.
In my current .5, 1 and 2k PBs I reach a higher stroke power as I 1. used a higher drag and 2. focued on a more powerful stroke as I knew that the races would be shorter.