Pondering the Beginner Pete Plan

[Dangerscouse]

Do you think my HR is too high during these SS sessions? I still find it hard to pace the sessions. My 2k best was at 1:57 pace and 218 watt. So I aimed for around 2k + 15 seconds. But my calculated AT begins somewhere in the high 150s and I passed it in the second half of my row. But this session felt quite easy and I could've hold it even longer.

I find that classifying 'quite easy' can be misleading, and you'll usually end up going too fast if you're not careful.

From your HR it does look to high for a steady session. We are all different with different required stimuli and abilities to recover etc, so it might be that in theory it's too high, but it works for you. Was it hot and/or humid?

[EastClintwood]

Thank you for your replies.

It is all based on your real HR max, but obviously your HR was shooting to high for a "real" steady state.
Typically 2k+25 is near to what can be used for steady state.

2k+25, wow that seems quite slow. Wouldn't probably feel like a workout at all.

I find that classifying 'quite easy' can be misleading, and you'll usually end up going too fast if you're not careful.

From your HR it does look to high for a steady session. We are all different with different required stimuli and abilities to recover etc, so it might be that in theory it's too high, but it works for you. Was it hot and/or humid?

I've been rowing at home in my living room. Somewhere below 20°C. The workout felt really moderate and the HR went down quite quick afterwards. Today, I barely feel like I worked out at all yesterday afternoon.

So, what would you recommend? Really lowering down the pace and HR or is it okay to keep going on like that? What would be the benefit if I'd drop my average HR to, let's say 140 or even lower? If that matters: My aim is to gain general fitness. I don't want to lose any weight.

[Sakly]

Thank you for your replies.

It is all based on your real HR max, but obviously your HR was shooting to high for a "real" steady state.
Typically 2k+25 is near to what can be used for steady state.

2k+25, wow that seems quite slow. Wouldn't probably feel like a workout at all.

I find that classifying 'quite easy' can be misleading, and you'll usually end up going too fast if you're not careful.

From your HR it does look to high for a steady session. We are all different with different required stimuli and abilities to recover etc, so it might be that in theory it's too high, but it works for you. Was it hot and/or humid?

I've been rowing at home in my living room. Somewhere below 20°C. The workout felt really moderate and the HR went down quite quick afterwards. Today, I barely feel like I worked out at all yesterday afternoon.

So, what would you recommend? Really lowering down the pace and HR or is it okay to keep going on like that? What would be the benefit if I'd drop my average HR to, let's say 140 or even lower? If that matters: My aim is to gain general fitness. I don't want to lose any weight.

It depends.
If you work out for only a few hours/week, around 4-5h, and recover well from the sessions - go on with harder efforts, shouldn't be any problem.
If you want to get faster and gain more aerobic capacity, then go for much longer rows at lower HR/load.

[Dangerscouse]

I've been rowing at home in my living room. Somewhere below 20°C. The workout felt really moderate and the HR went down quite quick afterwards. Today, I barely feel like I worked out at all yesterday afternoon.

So, what would you recommend? Really lowering down the pace and HR or is it okay to keep going on like that? What would be the benefit if I'd drop my average HR to, let's say 140 or even lower? If that matters: My aim is to gain general fitness. I don't want to lose any weight.

If I was you, I'd keep doing what you're doing and seeing how you recover and generally feel, assuming that your harder sessions are really a full on effort?

What you might find is that you're able to cope with this pace, because you're harder stuff isn't hard enough, so you're just eroding the middle ground without making the required adaptions to your fitness.

Steady state can be referred to as 'guilt inducingly easy', so you might just need to accept the lower HR sessions feel really slow. But on the other hand, you might also be able to cope with an effort that the text books say you can't. I'm a big fan of trying something for 6-8 weeks and very honestly analysing the effects. You may find what is ideal for you isn't ideal for the majority.

[Sakly]

2k+25, wow that seems quite slow. Wouldn't probably feel like a workout at all.

I want to give a short example what could expect, if trained "slow enough" as I am a newbee.
I started erging in January this year, bought a HR monitor very early.
My beginner status was very fit, as I trained 3 days/week in the gym doing very hard sessions for strength and also metcon/cardio, but only bodyweight interval trainings.

This 30min session is from the very start, 26th of February and was a "normal" session:

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Time	Meters	Pace	Watts	Cal/Hr	S/M	
30:00.0	7,502m	1:59.9	203	997	19	164
6:00.0	1,485m	2:01.2	197	976	20	156
12:00.0	1,495m	2:00.4	201	990	19	161
18:00.0	1,504m	1:59.6	204	1002	19	164
24:00.0	1,503m	1:59.7	204	1001	20	167
30:00.0	1,515m	1:58.8	209	1018	20	176

This 30min session was a recent one, 29th of November (now I call it a shorter, more intense one ):

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Time	Meters	Pace	Watts	Cal/Hr	S/M	HR 
30:00.0	7,877m	1:54.2	235	1107	20	159
5:00.0	1,286m	1:56.6	221	1059	20	146
10:00.0	1,360m	1:50.2	261	1197	21	162
15:00.0	1,343m	1:51.6	251	1164	20	164
20:00.0	1,289m	1:56.3	222	1064	20	155
25:00.0	1,289m	1:56.3	222	1064	20	163
30:00.0	1,310m	1:54.5	233	1102	20	166

9 month difference, where I had 2 month break and needed 2 more month to get back. 5 month net training and see the pace/wattage compared to the lower HR.
Significant higher power at significant lower HR.
I write that to give you an idea of what to expect, when not only training "hard" 3 days/week.
I thought I was already very fit - placed in ranking above 90% at the start. Now the results are way better, only because of the long and slow seasons. And I also feel advantages in my gym sessions as well.

[EastClintwood]

Very impressive. Did you follow the BPP with 3 sessions/week during these 9 months?

Thanks for your input, guys. Currently I'm doing 3-4 sessions of the BPP per week. As I'm in week 6, the long sessions are still quite short with less than 8k. So I think it would make more sense to slow down the sessions as soon as they reach 10k to make it at least ~45 minutes in the saddle. But I will also try to slow down a little bit on the next SS sessions and try to cap my HR somewhere around 150 bpm.

What you might find is that you're able to cope with this pace, because you're harder stuff isn't hard enough, so you're just eroding the middle ground without making the required adaptions to your fitness.

So, for the interval sessions as harder stuff, would you recommend to go all-out? BPP explained the first longer interval session in week 3 (2x 2000m) to be 2 seconds faster than the slow session which didn't really feel like a big difference in intensity...

[Sakly]

Very impressive. Did you follow the BPP with 3 sessions/week during these 9 months?

Thanks
I looked into a recent 10k, which was very near to the 30min pace of the first run and my average HR was 141. That would have been a better example to show, but I think it was clear what I wanted to show.
I don't follow any plan. I started rowing to work on my basic endurance and it is not weather dependent. And it's much more fun compared to running (for me). As I have 3 more or less intense gym sessions per week, it is hard to align this with rowing. I try to get 3 to 4 times per week on the rower and typically only one of these sessions is a harder one. Sometimes I do "grey zone" if I feel for it (like yesterday ).
I am a very experienced sportsman, so I know when my body needs rest and how my body responds to different stimuli and intensities. In this case you can do much more by feel and less by plans.

[Dangerscouse]

So, for the interval sessions as harder stuff, would you recommend to go all-out? BPP explained the first longer interval session in week 3 (2x 2000m) to be 2 seconds faster than the slow session which didn't really feel like a big difference in intensity...

I don't want to pretend that I know more than the BPP, but it does sound to me like you're possibly better than the assumptions that these paces are based on.

Is the longer interval session meant to be high intensity? Could you be more suited to the Pete Plan rather than the BPP?

[justaute]

All,

I am a newbie to rowing. Purchased a RowErg 3.5 weeks ago for winter training here in Utah and am now in Week 3 of the BPP. I have read just about this entire thread to learn as much as I can. Thank you for all the postings.

A bit of self-introduction here. I am 53 yo, 6'1" (184cm), and ~217 lbs (98-99 kg) and have a pretty mu. For most of my life, I have been a ball-player (basketball/volleyball) and a weight-lifter. Although I have been riding bike for years, I started to do more long distance gravel riding; completed a 65-mile gravel race for the first time in October and try to ride 3 times per week during the warmer seasons. Although I am pretty muscular and don't have a gut, I want to get more trim. Ideally, would like to get down to about ~200-205 lbs (90-92 kg) and maintain a relatively muscular build.

Thus far, my best 5500m time is at 2:23 (25 SPM), with the damper setting at 5, which has ~DF of 122. After much reading, Today, for my first 6000m, I decided to lower my SPM to between 18 and 20 (ended up at 18) and to increase stroke-distance (8.5m to 10.8m); finished the 6k at 30 minutes, with 2:30 pace and average HR of 132. Still a long ways to go.

Look forward to improving and learning from all of you. Any constructive input is more than welcomed and appreciated.

Ken

[RayOfSunshine]

So, for the interval sessions as harder stuff, would you recommend to go all-out? BPP explained the first longer interval session in week 3 (2x 2000m) to be 2 seconds faster than the slow session which didn't really feel like a big difference in intensity...

I don't want to pretend that I know more than the BPP, but it does sound to me like you're possibly better than the assumptions that these paces are based on.

Is the longer interval session meant to be high intensity? Could you be more suited to the Pete Plan rather than the BPP?

What's your maximum HR? What's your resting HR?

Agree 100% with Stu on your paces. The BPP is a confidence builder based on how it's set up. Going through the BPP this time on the ski. I went through what you're going through the 1st time through, that's why I'm pushing myself harder. I want to get to a point where I may not "succeed" for the session.

One suggestion would be to start pushing yourself hard on the final rep of the intervals. If you read ahead in program (including the "optional" sessions), you'll see that's how it starts to get progressively tougher. As far as the steady states, it really depends on your Max and Resting HR because a HR alone doesn't tell much.

With this modification, it becomes less "beginner" earlier in the program for sure.

[RayOfSunshine]

All,

I am a newbie to rowing. Purchased a RowErg 3.5 weeks ago for winter training here in Utah and am now in Week 3 of the BPP. I have read just about this entire thread to learn as much as I can. Thank you for all the postings.


Thus far, my best 5500m time is at 2:23 (25 SPM), with the damper setting at 5, which has ~DF of 122. After much reading, Today, for my first 6000m, I decided to lower my SPM to between 18 and 20 (ended up at 18) and to increase stroke-distance (8.5m to 10.8m); finished the 6k at 30 minutes, with 2:30 pace and average HR of 132. Still a long ways to go.

Look forward to improving and learning from all of you. Any constructive input is more than welcomed and appreciated.

Ken

Welcome aboard! As you've probably read, focusing on form and a solid (strong drive) & fluid stroke are keys at the beginning. It's harder to "unlearn" poor form.

Do you know your maximum and resting HRs? https://www.concept2.com/indoor-rowers/ ... rate-range

For the SPM on longer steady states, I am in the range of 20-24. I just looked at my last hour row was at 21 SPM, max HR was 60% of HRR, df = 109. I will use a df anywhere from 105 to 130 (sprints). I'm more of a sprinter (fast twitch) than endurance (slow twitch), so the lower df suits me better. It's really a matter of preference. There was a video that helped explain it to me. I was actually doing the opposite prior to watching the video.

[mitchel674]

All,

I am a newbie to rowing. Purchased a RowErg 3.5 weeks ago for winter training here in Utah and am now in Week 3 of the BPP. I have read just about this entire thread to learn as much as I can. Thank you for all the postings.

A bit of self-introduction here. I am 53 yo, 6'1" (184cm), and ~217 lbs (98-99 kg) and have a pretty mu. For most of my life, I have been a ball-player (basketball/volleyball) and a weight-lifter. Although I have been riding bike for years, I started to do more long distance gravel riding; completed a 65-mile gravel race for the first time in October and try to ride 3 times per week during the warmer seasons. Although I am pretty muscular and don't have a gut, I want to get more trim. Ideally, would like to get down to about ~200-205 lbs (90-92 kg) and maintain a relatively muscular build.

Thus far, my best 5500m time is at 2:23 (25 SPM), with the damper setting at 5, which has ~DF of 122. After much reading, Today, for my first 6000m, I decided to lower my SPM to between 18 and 20 (ended up at 18) and to increase stroke-distance (8.5m to 10.8m); finished the 6k at 30 minutes, with 2:30 pace and average HR of 132. Still a long ways to go.

Look forward to improving and learning from all of you. Any constructive input is more than welcomed and appreciated.

Ken

Welcome and congrats on the new rower.

Pretty good time on your 5500m. Resist temptation to think of those rows in terms of your pace. You are not trying to have a "best" for those increasingly longer rows. You should be focusing on technique, efficiency and relaxation.

It's a big drop for 25spm to 18spm. It might be best for you to do these long rows at 22spm for a few weeks.

[EastClintwood]

So, for the interval sessions as harder stuff, would you recommend to go all-out? BPP explained the first longer interval session in week 3 (2x 2000m) to be 2 seconds faster than the slow session which didn't really feel like a big difference in intensity...

I don't want to pretend that I know more than the BPP, but it does sound to me like you're possibly better than the assumptions that these paces are based on.

Is the longer interval session meant to be high intensity? Could you be more suited to the Pete Plan rather than the BPP?

What's your maximum HR? What's your resting HR?

Agree 100% with Stu on your paces. The BPP is a confidence builder based on how it's set up. Going through the BPP this time on the ski. I went through what you're going through the 1st time through, that's why I'm pushing myself harder. I want to get to a point where I may not "succeed" for the session.

One suggestion would be to start pushing yourself hard on the final rep of the intervals. If you read ahead in program (including the "optional" sessions), you'll see that's how it starts to get progressively tougher. As far as the steady states, it really depends on your Max and Resting HR because a HR alone doesn't tell much.

With this modification, it becomes less "beginner" earlier in the program for sure.

My maximum HR is above 180, I've seen a 182 on the concept 2 monitor a few weeks ago. My resting HR is somwehere in the 50s. I have a fitness wristband which shows bpm at night between 50 and 60. I've even seen below 50, but I don't know how accurate it is.

For my bands calculations, I took 55 as a resting HR and 183 as a max HR:

Code: Select all

Your UT2 band is a heart rate of 125 bpm to 145 bpm with a mean of 135 bpm.
Your UT1 band is a heart rate of 146 bpm to 157 bpm with a mean of 151 bpm.
Your AT band is a heart rate of 158 bpm to 164 bpm with a mean of 161 bpm.
Your TR band is a heart rate of 165 bpm to 177 bpm with a mean of 171 bpm.
Your AN band is a heart rate of 178 bpm to 183 bpm with a mean of 180 bpm.
Your 70% heart rate is 145 bpm.
Your 85% heart rate is 164 bpm.

With the next SS session upcoming, I will aim for a max HR of 150 bpm to see the pace I can get. I think it's gonna be around 2k + 20-25.

@Dangerscouse: The normal Pete Plan has too many sessions for me, so I'll stick to the BPP with 4-5 sessions a week. But when I compare BPP and PP, I think there isn't as many difference. The distances are quite similar. Only steady state is recommended to be up to 15k while in BPP it stays at 10-12k.

[justaute]

Welcome and congrats on the new rower.

Pretty good time on your 5500m. Resist temptation to think of those rows in terms of your pace. You are not trying to have a "best" for those increasingly longer rows. You should be focusing on technique, efficiency and relaxation.

It's a big drop for 25spm to 18spm. It might be best for you to do these long rows at 22spm for a few weeks.

Thank you. You're right about the drop. I'm still figuring out what my "comfortable" pace is and, as you said, trying to focus on techniques. As a noob, even though I was a D1 athlete long ago, I want to make sure my form is sound.

[EastClintwood]

Week 6, Session 3. I extended the distance to ~8.000 meters as it felt quite good.

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Time	Meters	Pace	Watts	Cal/Hr	S/M	HR
35:36.9	8,018m	2:13.2	148	809	18	156
5:00.0	1,123m	2:13.5	147	805	18	138
5:00.0	1,128m	2:12.9	149	812	19	151
5:00.0	1,129m	2:12.8	149	813	19	155
5:00.0	1,129m	2:12.8	149	813	19	158
5:00.0	1,123m	2:13.5	147	805	19	160
5:00.0	1,126m	2:13.2	148	809	19	162
5:00.0	1,126m	2:13.2	148	809	19	164
0:36.9	133m	2:18.7	131	751	17	166

Do you think my HR is too high during these SS sessions? I still find it hard to pace the sessions. My 2k best was at 1:57 pace and 218 watt. So I aimed for around 2k + 15 seconds. But my calculated AT begins somewhere in the high 150s and I passed it in the second half of my row. But this session felt quite easy and I could've hold it even longer.

Week 7 Session 1. Extended to 8k again.

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Time	Meters	Pace	Watts	Cal/Hr	S/M	HR
36:32.8	8,000m	2:17.0	136	767	22	140
7:18.8	1,600m	2:17.1	136	767	22	129
7:16.4	1,600m	2:16.3	138	774	23	136
7:17.9	1,600m	2:16.8	137	770	22	143
7:18.1	1,600m	2:16.9	136	769	22	145
7:21.6	1,600m	2:18.0	133	758	22	149

Managed to keep the HR below 150. I felt like it is easier to keep my HR down when i raise my spm to 22-23. That puts fewer power into each stroke than going at 18-19 spm which is my normal rate.

2:17 pace is pretty exactly my 2k + 20 seconds. I could try to go even lower, but seriously, how do you manage to keep a good form during the stroke when you push/pull at such low watts? I think it's quite hard to maintain a good form stroke with tension in my whole body at such a low pace? Feels somehow...wrong and not like proper rowing at all. I've read recommendations for SS to be 50-60% of the pulled 2k watts. That would lead me to 120 watts or lower!! I really don't know how to row at such low intensity and still feel like I'm rowing at all.