Ulnar Nerve Entrapment / Cubital Tunnel

[Tsnor]

Are you people never going to wake up? I bought my Model D in 2008. Within two weeks I was in disbelief that users had been uncomplainingly pulling on a rigid stick of a handle since the 1980s. Another 14 years has passed and still no one dares to state the obvious: the handle is the cause of all these injuries! Instead, everyone sings praises to Concept 2 and encourage the injured users to "get back up on the horse" after they have healed, guaranteeing more injury. It's madness. It's a collective derangement.

And yet all newly designed rowers use the same type handles as C2. None use the type of handle you suggest. They are either all wrong or you have the makings of an interesting class action lawsuit.

Examples:

Nordictrack Rowers -->

Hydrow rower


Waterrower

[Slidewinder]

Are you people never going to wake up? I bought my Model D in 2008. Within two weeks I was in disbelief that users had been uncomplainingly pulling on a rigid stick of a handle since the 1980s. Another 14 years has passed and still no one dares to state the obvious: the handle is the cause of all these injuries! Instead, everyone sings praises to Concept 2 and encourage the injured users to "get back up on the horse" after they have healed, guaranteeing more injury. It's madness. It's a collective derangement.

And yet all newly designed rowers use the same type handles as C2. None use the type of handle you suggest. They are either all wrong or you have the makings of an interesting class action lawsuit.

They are all wrong. Heavy users of those machines will suffer the same injuries as are being reported here, and you and others pretending the rigid handle is not the cause will help to ensure nothing changes and the injuries will continue. It is the old tale of everyone pretending that the Emperor is fully clothed, that there is nothing wrong. The intelligent and the educated are not immune from this groupthink. I came across a photo in a rowing magazine of a U.S. professor of biomechanics on a C2 machine. The photo had caught him at the end of the stroke. There he was, his wrists bent at an awkward angle, in violation of everything he knows and professes - and a big grin on his face.

[JaapvanE]

They are all wrong. Heavy users of those machines will suffer the same injuries as are being reported here, and you and others pretending the rigid handle is not the cause will help to ensure nothing changes and the injuries will continue.

Put up or shut up.

This is quite a statement, so unless you substantiate these wild claims with data or decent research, you are just as credible as the village idiot claiming the end of the world is tomorrow.

It is the old tale of everyone pretending that the Emperor is fully clothed, that there is nothing wrong. The intelligent and the educated are not immune from this groupthink. I came across a photo in a rowing magazine of a U.S. professor of biomechanics on a C2 machine. The photo had caught him at the end of the stroke. There he was, his wrists bent at an awkward angle, in violation of everything he knows and professes - and a big grin on his face.

So? Unless he is also a (former) rowing athlete, who can blame him? Rowing isn't a really natural motion, it has to be taught. Researching subjects rowing, knowing what to do when rowing, and roewing in real life are three totally different things. And awkward angles aren't a bad thing in themselves, a human body can take some stress and awkward angles, just look at yoga.

And what is your point with this unrelated anecdote anyway? That the professor in question is corrupt?

So unless you have the data or scientific studies that show that there is an excessive amount of wrist damage to recreational rowers, you again are creating a lot of noise about nothing, and derailing a thread where people do have valid concerns.

[Dangerscouse]

They are all wrong. Heavy users of those machines will suffer the same injuries as are being reported here.

I'm what can probably be termed a 'heavy user'*, and I can honestly say I've never suffered wrist injury. Lots of lower back issues, but never wrists, or arms in general for that matter.

*I've officially rowed circa 15 million metres, but I've not logged many millions of metres, so I'd guess I've rowed 35 million over the past 22 years. That also includes 4.45 million metres in the 2020/21 season, so it's not like I've not been consistent enough to really stress test it.

[Sakly]

They are all wrong. Heavy users of those machines will suffer the same injuries as are being reported here.

I'm what can probably be termed a 'heavy user'*, and I can honestly say I've never suffered wrist injury. Lots of lower back issues, but never wrists, or arms in general for that matter.

*I've officially rowed circa 15 million metres, but I've not logged many millions of metres, so I'd guess I've rowed 35 million over the past 22 years. That also includes 4.45 million metres in the 2020/21 season, so it's not like I've not been consistent enough to really stress test it.

Not even near to the amount of your meters, but as a beginner I had month with >200k with no issues at all. If the handle would be that horrific, a newbee should feel issues after heavy usage.

It's the same in every sport. If joints and ligaments are not prepared well, you will get injuries or at least issues that block you to go on with full effort.
Example: if you start handstand training each day without joint preparation of your wrists you WILL get problems. And that is not because the floor is build in a bad way. That is because you did not prepare well and did not build up progressively. The same applies for rowing and any other sports activities.

[JaapvanE]

It's the same in every sport. If joints and ligaments are not prepared well, you will get injuries or at least issues that block you to go on with full effort.

And using the equipment with the right technique is an essential ingredient as well in avoiding injury. If people grip the handle to rigidly, use an explosive catch and put the damper way too high (i.e. what the average gym goer does due to lack of decent guidance), you get quite a sudden strain on wrists and elbows. But changing the bar won't help there, as it is the sudden high tension on a bent joint is the cause of injury, not the angle per se. Legs are extremely powerful, so a 1000N force can easily be generated by them, resulting in a 500N force on each arm that has to be transferred to the flywheel. Using proper technique and a decent preparation are key here to survive this.

And even then. A training-budy of mine squeezed the bar too hard with a biceps-curl using a Z-S bar, and he tore one of his wrist muscles. I trained with him for over 4 years and his technique was excellent. The S-Z bar should remove any strain. One moment of eagerness/concentrationloss put him out of business for over a year.

[Dangerscouse]

It's the same in every sport. If joints and ligaments are not prepared well, you will get injuries or at least issues that block you to go on with full effort.
Example: if you start handstand training each day without joint preparation of your wrists you WILL get problems. And that is not because the floor is build in a bad way. That is because you did not prepare well and did not build up progressively. The same applies for rowing and any other sports activities.

I'm wondering if the bigger issue is the finish in the stroke? I row to my sternum, and don't alter my wrists too much, but I do see some people row higher up and notably move the wrists to finish the stroke, albeit I've seen Olympic rowers doing this too, so it can't be massively detrimental.

I like your example about progressive overload and preparation too. That has got to play some part for some rowers too.

[Sakly]

It's the same in every sport. If joints and ligaments are not prepared well, you will get injuries or at least issues that block you to go on with full effort.
Example: if you start handstand training each day without joint preparation of your wrists you WILL get problems. And that is not because the floor is build in a bad way. That is because you did not prepare well and did not build up progressively. The same applies for rowing and any other sports activities.

I'm wondering if the bigger issue is the finish in the stroke? I row to my sternum, and don't alter my wrists too much, but I do see some people row higher up and notably move the wrists to finish the stroke, albeit I've seen Olympic rowers doing this too, so it can't be massively detrimental.

I like your example about progressive overload and preparation too. That has got to play some part for some rowers too.

I think the same, mostly the finish is creating a potential issue, when not covered well with preparation.
And also the Olympic rower has not started with 100k/week, so the wrists get used to the load progressively.
My experience is: every issue with joints or ligaments are caused by too much too soon/fast.
Look around what the human body is capable of doing. There are humans which can lift 3-4 times their bodyweight, humans which can bend backwards touch the floor standing up, many other unbelievable stuff. It takes patience and progression to build up to these abilities, it's not done in 3 weeks.
And now: a handle bar shall be the root cause for issues of the wrists/hands? I don't think so.

[JaapvanE]

I'm wondering if the bigger issue is the finish in the stroke?

I think it depends on what issue you are fighting: the famous T-Rex arms are typically found at the finish, although the wrists don't have to contain much tension here. But having a stressful grip at the finish could cause injury that way.

Another issue is actually at the catch: bending the arms to early and trying to keep them bent during the leg drive. That exposes the much weaker biceps to the forces of the leg drive, which is a recipe for injury. Same goes for the wrist: if the grip is tight and cramped, the wrist is exposed to a lot of force. A stretched relaxed arm can handle a lot more easily.

And now: a handle bar shall be the root cause for issues of the wrists/hands? I don't think so.

It isn't the handle bar, especially the Concept2 one: most competing brands (including the $2000+ NordicTracks! as shown by Tsnor) provide a straight stick, which should increase the stress on the wrists/hands. The Concept2 is slightly angled, which definitely is a more comfortable (used a NoridcTrack for a year). But no matter the technology, you can't compensate for overgripping.

[Sakly]

And now: a handle bar shall be the root cause for issues of the wrists/hands? I don't think so.

It isn't the handle bar, especially the Concept2 one: most competing brands (including the $2000+ NordicTracks! as shown by Tsnor) provide a straight stick, which should increase the stress on the wrists/hands. The Concept2 is slightly angled, which definitely is a more comfortable (used a NoridcTrack for a year). But no matter the technology, you can't compensate for overgripping.

I think the same, but even a straight bar is not a real problem, you have to prepare better. And preparation does not only cover mobility and strength, exactly as you wrote - it covers also technique.

[Dangerscouse]

But no matter the technology, you can't compensate for overgripping.

I only ever hook my fingers over the handle, but I'd agree that a death grip on the handle is going to cause issues.

[Slidewinder]

They are all wrong. Heavy users of those machines will suffer the same injuries as are being reported here, and you and others pretending the rigid handle is not the cause will help to ensure nothing changes and the injuries will continue.

... unless you substantiate these wild claims with data or decent research, you are just as credible as the village idiot...etc.

It is the old tale of everyone pretending that the Emperor is fully clothed, that there is nothing wrong. The intelligent and the educated are not immune from this groupthink. I came across a photo in a rowing magazine of a U.S. professor of biomechanics on a C2 machine...etc.

And what is your point with this unrelated anecdote anyway? That the professor in question is corrupt?
Unless you have the data or scientific studies that show...etc., you are... derailing a thread where people do have valid concerns.

My point about the professor anecdote is not that he is corrupt. The point (which I made clear) is that, as educated as he is, he too has been so influenced by groupthink (ie: that the Concept 2 Rowerg is utterly without design flaws) that he forgets what he knows to be true when he on a C2 unit. I suggest that this is also true of you. Also, as an aside, and regarding your insults. Prince Philip was once asked what constituted a gentleman. "Education and manners," he replied.

I am not "derailing a thread where people do have valid concerns". You sir are doing that by pretending that the rigid handle is not source of these injuries. Five posters on this thread report wrist and elbow injuries, but you and others act as if it is a great mystery how they sustained those injuries. I suggest you take a freeze frame of a sculling athlete at the end of a stroke. Notice that the hands, wrists, and forearms are in alignment. Notice too the position of the hands in relation to the torso. That position is not possible using the C2 stock handle. That position is possible if the handle modification advice I gave is followed (see my Nov. 22 post this thread). I gave that advice to another RowErg user. He had logged millions of meters but could no longer row because of the pain. In his words, "I trashed my elbows going those distances. I used ice like it was the only thing that mattered." He took my advice and reported back. His words again, "After a month on the machine, and still no pain."

Your reference to yoga is not relevant. Those are static poses. Rowing is dynamic. A rigid handle does not follow the natural movements of the user from catch to finish. All of the advice about holding the handle lightly in your fingers, how to orient one's elbows and so on, are all attempts to adapt to a non-compliant handle. It is an attempt by the user to alter his/her natural movement to be in compliance with the machine. It should be the other way around. At a human/machine interface the user should not be forced to adapt to the machine, the machine should adapt to the user. The push back against this reasoning by you and others here is baffling. I remember explaining this to an acquaintance. "Of course," he replied, "That should be obvious to anyone with intelligence."

[Slidewinder]

Five posters on this thread report wrist and elbow injuries, but you and others act as if it is a great mystery how they sustained those injuries.

My reply to JaapvanE has had a day to sink in. From the stunned silence I sense that many here, especially the injured, are glimpsing an unpleasant truth. You now all know that the C2 stock handle is causing injuries. You also know that the handle can be modified to prevent injuries. We can be certain that Concept 2 also knows these things. So what does this mean, that Concept 2 knows people are being injured, knows how to prevent people from being injured, and does nothing about it? It means, you poor deluded C2-cheering souls, that Concept 2 is not your buddy.

[JaapvanE]

I think the same, but even a straight bar is not a real problem, you have to prepare better. And preparation does not only cover mobility and strength, exactly as you wrote - it covers also technique.

I agree with you that the combination of these three (or lack thereof) is the underlying cause for this type of injury. If it was only the handle as some unsubstantiated claim here, people would be dropping like flies with injuries all over the place. There are literally millions of people rowing every week, on all types of devices, some even with straight handles. Especially the group here on the forum such a systematic cause should be easily detectable: people have 'a certain age' which is more injury-prone, combined with an obsession for long distance, which leads to a lot more prolonged and repeated exposure. Such a bias in group should lead to much more dropouts than a few when it is an issue in the entire population, especially when you have several 70+ rowers kicking my ass with over 3 million meters a year. When a systematic handle issue would lead to wrist injury, these are the ones to get injured first (most just keep kicking my ass though, so they are probably tough as a nail doing fine, just complaining about those lazy youngsters ). Based on simple medical cohort study principles one must exclude the handle as sole source of injury. So something else is happening to these people and doing too much too fast or deathgripping are indeed very likely causes.

[Sakly]

Five posters on this thread report wrist and elbow injuries, but you and others act as if it is a great mystery how they sustained those injuries.

My reply to JaapvanE has had a day to sink in. From the stunned silence I sense that many here, especially the injured, are glimpsing an unpleasant truth. You now all know that the C2 stock handle is causing injuries. You also know that the handle can be modified to prevent injuries. We can be certain that Concept 2 also knows these things. So what does this mean, that Concept 2 knows people are being injured, knows how to prevent people from being injured, and does nothing about it? It means, you poor deluded C2-cheering souls, that Concept 2 is not your buddy.

I only know that you are writing weird stuff (in my opinion). So I had no reason to answer something about your post.

Go and develop a solution, produce and sell it. Based on your success and sales figures you can figure out how big this problem really is. I bet you will not get into winning zone, but probably I'm wrong