2k Training For Folks My Age

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » December 28th, 2005, 4:56 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(jamesg @ Dec 28 2005, 12:12 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>I raced 2ks at 27-28, which at 10W' reached the limit of my Cv capacity.[right] </td></tr></table><br />A rower going at 1:48 pace is generating 277.8 watts, which you have divided by the stroke rating to get 10 watts per stroke.<br /><br />However, you were already generating 277.8 watts per stroke.<br /><br />Thus it seems to me that a better comparison would be to <b>multiply</b> the watts by the stroke rate.<br /><br />Thus your 277.8 watts at 27.8 spm becomes <b>7723 sw/m</b> (stroke watts per minute).<br /><br />Performing the same 1:48 pace 8 meters per stroke is 277.8 watts X 34.7 spm which gives me <b>9640 stroke watts per minute.</b><br /><br /><br />

[old] afolpe · Post by **[old] afolpe** » December 28th, 2005, 5:02 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Dec 28 2005, 03:56 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(jamesg @ Dec 28 2005, 12:12 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>I raced 2ks at 27-28, which at 10W' reached the limit of my Cv capacity.[right] </td></tr></table><br />A rower going at 1:48 pace is generating 277.8 watts, which you have divided by the stroke rating to get 10 watts per stroke.<br /><br />However, you were already generating 277.8 watts per stroke.<br /><br />Thus it seems to me that a better comparison would be to <b>multiply</b> the watts by the stroke rate.<br /><br />Thus your 277.8 watts at 27.8 spm becomes <b>7723 sw/m</b> (stroke watts per minute).<br /><br />Performing the same 1:48 pace 8 meters per stroke is 277.8 watts X 34.7 spm which gives me <b>9640 stroke watts per minute.</b> <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br /><br />watt (W) <br />the SI unit of power. Power is the rate at which work is done, or (equivalently) the rate at which energy is expended. One watt is equal to a power rate of one joule of work per second of time. This unit is used both in mechanics and in electricity, so it links the mechanical and electrical units to one another. In mechanical terms, one watt equals about 0.001 341 02 horsepower (hp) or 0.737 562 foot-pound per second (lbf/s). In electrical terms, one watt is the power produced by a current of one ampere flowing through an electric potential of one volt. The name of the unit honors James Watt (1736-1819), the British engineer who built the first practical steam engines. <br /><br /><br />So "watts per minute" is perhaps a bit convoluted?

[old] PaulS · Post by **[old] PaulS** » December 28th, 2005, 5:26 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Dec 27 2005, 07:07 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Here are the stroke rate averages for each 10 strokes during Eskild Ebbesen's age 30+ WR of 6:06.4 on March 21, 2004.<br /><br />10- 53.5<br />20- 43.2<br />30- 39.7<br />40- 38.5<br />50- 37.8__<br />60- 38.0<br />70- 38.3<br />80- 37.6<br />90- 38.3<br />00- 38.2__<br />10- 38.8<br />20- 38.2<br />30- 38.5<br />40- 38.5<br />50- 38.2__<br />60- 38.4<br />70- 37.8<br />80- 37.7<br />90- 38.1<br />00- 41.2__<br />10- 43.3<br />20- 43.9<br />30- 47.6<br />40- 50.4<br />50- 49.1__ 6:06.4 <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Thank you for reviewing those figures John, they appear to reflect exactly what I said. "Some strokes considerably above 41 and far more below."<br /><br />SR > 41 for 80 strokes (Avg close to SR=49, Pace = 1:30, 7.547m/stroke, 541m)<br />SR < 41 for 170 strokes (Avg close to SR=38, Pace = 1:32, 8.581m/stroke, 1459m )<br /><br />While your claim of Average of 8m/stroke is easily shown to be a distortion of what was happening at any point in the race, you could contrast this with Pavel Shurmei at SR=36 and 10m/stroke for nearly the entire race.<br /><br />Given your own detailed breakdown above, how is it that you justify your notion of "always training at 8m/s"? You have always used Esklids race to do that, but now that you have shown that is not what he does, are you going to change your mind?<br /><br />

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » December 28th, 2005, 5:51 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(afolpe @ Dec 28 2005, 01:02 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>"watts per minute" is perhaps a bit convoluted?[right] </td></tr></table><br /><br />There is nothing convoluted about it.<br /><br />Watts per stroke, watts per second, watts per minute, are all shown the same on the C2 performance monitors.<br /><br />If you were referring to my example, it is sw/m, i.e. stroke watts per minute, which is not the same thing as watts.<br /><br />You obtain the stroke watts per minute by multiplying the watts by the stroke rate.<br /><br /><br />

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » December 28th, 2005, 6:03 pm

Ebbesen did the first 10 strokes at 53.5 spm.<br /><br />Ebbesen's lowest 10 stroke rating was 37.6 spm. <br /><br />His average stroke rate never dipped below 39.3 spm.<br /><br />Ebbesen's 250 strokes for the 2k shows he averages 8 meters per stroke in his races.<br /><br />His overall stroke rate in his 6:03.2 2k was 41.3 spm

[old] PaulS · Post by **[old] PaulS** » December 28th, 2005, 6:11 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Dec 28 2005, 02:03 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Dec 27 2005, 09:06 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>World Record holders Eskild Ebbesen and Elia Luina both race at ~ 41 strokes per minute and at 8 meters per stroke. </td></tr></table><br />John is correct.<br /><br /><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Dec 27 2005, 09:36 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Eskild tends to start out at SR=60 for several strokes </td></tr></table><br />PaulS is wrong. Ebbesen did the first 10 strokes at 53.5 spm.<br /><br /><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>and then into a far more "normal" 35-38 for the vast majority of his Erg piece </td></tr></table><br />PaulS is wrong again. <br /><br />Ebbesen's lowest 10 stroke rating was 37.6 spm. <br /><br />His average stroke rate never dipped below 39.3 spm.<br /><br /><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>the Average of 41, just takes a long time to arrive at from the original skewed blip from the beginning. </td></tr></table><br />PaulS is wrong again. <br /><br />Ebbesen's 250 strokes for the 2k shows he averages 8 meters per stroke in his races.<br /><br />His overall stroke rate in his 6:03.2 2k was 41.3 spm <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Priceless, John! Absolutely Priceless! <br /><br />You're not doing your part to help.....

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » December 28th, 2005, 6:19 pm

How about an adjustment then...

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » December 28th, 2005, 6:22 pm

Paul,<br /><br />Is that better....

[old] PaulS · Post by **[old] PaulS** » December 28th, 2005, 6:30 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Dec 28 2005, 02:22 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Paul,<br /><br />Is that better.... <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Not really, you didn't answer the questions asked of you.

[old] anthonys · Post by **[old] anthonys** » December 28th, 2005, 7:25 pm

Well, no one can say that a reasonable question doesn't deserve to go unpunished. <br /><br />tony

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » December 28th, 2005, 7:38 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Dec 28 2005, 01:26 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Thank you for reviewing those figures John, they appear to reflect exactly what I said. "Some strokes considerably above 41 and far more below." </td></tr></table><br />Actually, you said Ebbesen rows at 9 meters per stroke.<br /><br />However, he rows at 8.0 meters per stroke not 9 meters per stroke.<br /><br />The correct figures and results are the ones that I posted before.<br /><br /><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Given your own detailed breakdown above, how is it that you justify your notion of "always training at 8m/s"? </td></tr></table><br />To the contrary I have never said that I always train at 8 mps. You must have quoted yourself. I have trained at everything from 10 spm to above 50 spm and with a wide range of mps. Based on Ebbesen's 2k, racing and training at 8.0 mps is what he does. However, he is taller, heavier and stronger than I am.<br /><br />As I have stated elsewhere, most of my easy and steady rowing is at 8 meters per stroke. However I am basing my faster training more on stroke ratings than meters per stroke, so they come out somewhat less than 8. However, when ratings are the criteria then the meters per stroke do not matter.<br /><br /><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>You have always used Esklids race to do that, but now that you have shown that is not what he does, are you going to change your mind? </td></tr></table><br />I have shown that Ebbesen races at 8 mps and not at 9 mps.<br /><br />This is the same thing that I posted before.<br /><br />No, I am not going to change my mind, because that's what he does. <br />

[old] jamesg · Post by **[old] jamesg** » December 30th, 2005, 2:47 am

John,<br /><br />Thanks for your comments, and sorry to be so unclear myself. <br /><br />Your note that you normally pull 2:24 @ 26 is very interesting. This means that your stroke characteristic is 4.5 W'/stroke, and that you are working at 120W and 1.8 W/kg. This is at the slower end of the UT2 band I believe. <br /><br />If that type of work (which no doubt you maintain for hours on end) enables you to produce the times you show in your signature, then we might suspect that all training plans that require anything faster are junk, at least as far as endurance is concerned.<br /><br />The only plan I've seen that required such a low work level was the ARA Gold Standard, but maybe doing some sums would show that Xeno says the same thing, when he talks about 70-90 minutes and low lactate levels... People with Gold medals can be trusted to know these things.<br /><br /><br />I don't train at 27 because it would be faster than AT level for me, which I think is of no use as I'm not racing any more; and I must say your training and results seem to justify this impression.<br /><br /><br />As to the definitions that I don't like, or rather the ISO definitions that we use, see AFolpe above.<br /><br />We must distinguish between engineering and colloquial meanings. The latter lead you astray. The Watt is a unit of Power, i.e. a rate of generation of Work, but what we do in a single stroke is Work. Work done is Force x Distance, and in the erg case, = the force we apply to the handle x the distance it travels while the chain is under tension. <br /><br />If we pull @ 130W for one minute, we have done 130 Watt minutes of Work in that minute; and at rating 26, 5Wmin/stroke. This unit, which I write W' or Wmin for brevity, happens to give a manageable number that characterises our personal stroke. It's analagous to but much smaller than the kWh we pay for in our light bill, and that measures the work the supply co has done for us.<br /><br />The units you invent such as Watts per minute or second have no useful meaning here, Watts and Watt-minutes cover all our needs. <br /><br />The Joule is one Watt-second (better, 1W=1J/s), so if in a minute at 130W @26 we produce 130*60 Ws = 7.8 kJ, the corresponding stroke characteristic would be 7.800/26=300J. This is identical to my albeit arbitrary expression of the Work as 5W' or Wmin, just a larger number. <br /><br />We use W' it because it's easy to use, just divide Power by rating, the numbers you see on screen, and you know how much Work you've done in a single stroke. Some call it SPI.

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » December 30th, 2005, 4:08 am

At least 65% of my rowing is at 2:24 pace, which is basically very mild work but I consider it more in the realm of endurance and recovery. I know of some top rowers who go even farther from their 2k pace on recovery days so am not alone in doing this. Basically I am doing two faster sessions a week and the other days are easy. Yesterday I averaged around 1:59 pace for 90 minutes with breaks, and then warm down after that. <br /><br />Power is measured in watts = joules per second.<br /><br />You keep mentioning watts per stroke, then give an example that a Watt is energy per second. The point is that watts are energy per time and, thus, cannot still be watts when you divide them by the stroke rate. Rather, that is removing time and leaves it just energy without time. If you are going a certain pace and have 201 watts, then it is still 201 watts when you produce that energy for a minute, and it is still 201 watts when you produce that energy for an hour, and it is still 201 watts when you produce that energy for one stroke.<br /><br />So you can't divide 201 watts per stroke and get 10 watts per stroke.<br /><br /><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>I don't train at 27 because it would be faster than AT level for me </td></tr></table><br />Only if you don't modulate the intensity of each stroke.<br /><br /><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>If we pull @ 130W for one minute, we have done 130 Watt minutes of Work in that minute; and at rating 26, 5Wmin/stroke. </td></tr></table><br />You have produced 130 watts = 130 joules per second, for the time period of one minute. This is 130 joules x 60 seconds = 7800 joules in a minute.<br /><br />7800 joules / 26 spm = 300 joules per stroke = 130 watts for 2.3 seconds.<br /><br /><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>This unit, which I write W' or Wmin for brevity, happens to give a manageable number that characterises our personal stroke. </td></tr></table><br />You need to change your W' to a J', and J' /60 /SR= SPI.<br /><br /><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>The units you invent such as Watts per minute or second have no useful meaning here, Watts and Watt-minutes cover all our needs. </td></tr></table><br />Actually it does have meaning. A watt-minute means you produced that 130 watts for one minute. A watt-hour means you produced that 130 watts for one hour. A watt-stroke means you produced that 130 watts for the time period of one stroke.<br /><br /><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>the corresponding stroke characteristic would be 7.800/26=300J. </td></tr></table><br />Right.<br /><br /><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>This is identical to my albeit arbitrary expression of the Work as 5W' or Wmin, just a larger number. </td></tr></table><br />What you are referring to are the joules per stroke, not the watts per stroke.<br /><br /><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>We use W' it because it's easy to use, just divide Power by rating </td></tr></table><br />When you divide power by rating, it is no longer power.<br /><br />Power is measured in watts = joules per second.<br /><br /><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>you know how much Work you've done in a single stroke. </td></tr></table><br />Work, yes. Not power. If you walk 8 miles in 4 hours and I run 8 miles in one hour, we are both completing the same work, but I have done it 4 times as quickly as you did. <br /><br /><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Some call it SPI. </td></tr></table><br />Yes, as I said in my first message above.<br /><br />Joules /60 /SR = (what some here call) SPI.

[old] jamesg · Post by **[old] jamesg** » December 30th, 2005, 1:08 pm

Compliments on pulling 1:59 for 90' at your weight, 65kg, more than a ½M at 3W/kg. I reckon I'm doing my duty at 2. What rating do you use? At 8mps, you would rate almost 32, 6.5Wmin/stroke.<br /><br />I think the training effect of long pieces at 2:24 must be greater than you give credit for. Do you look at HR during that sort of pull? If it goes over 120, I think it's a w/o in itself.<br /><br /><br /><br />As for W-min and similar units, we must not forget that Rating is not a pure number. It is a number (of strokes) divided by a Time, so has dimension 1/T; therefore dividing Watts by Rating, a quantity having dimension 1/T, is the same as multiplying Watts by Time, and gives Work. <br /><br />In units, multiplying J/s by a time in seconds gives J which is a unit of Work. <br /><br />As we use the minute to express ratings, the number we get from Watts/rating is 60 times smaller than it would be in Joules, as we have seen. It's also easier to use when on the go: just divide the W by the rating, both as shown on the monitor and that's your Work/stroke. <br /><br />It's always nice to know what we're actually doing rather than guessing via some arcane pace or metre calculation based on cube laws and arbitrary constants.

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » January 6th, 2006, 2:38 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(jamesg @ Dec 30 2005, 09:08 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>What rating do you use? </td></tr></table><br />8 meters per stroke for easy and steady rowing down to 1:54 pace or so and then I start going more by the rating. My objective is to raise my rating to 40 for the 2k, and the other distances proportional to that by the pace.<br /><br /><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>I think the training effect of long pieces at 2:24 must be greater than you give credit for. Do you look at HR during that sort of pull? </td></tr></table><br />I haven't checked it for quite awhile. A year or so ago it was 103 to 107, which is 47% of my heart rate reserve.<br /><br /><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>dividing Watts by Rating, a quantity having dimension 1/T, is the same as multiplying Watts by Time, and gives Work. </td></tr></table><br />As Watts are Joules Per Second, you can't multiply them by time and still have them be Watts. Rather, you can say you produced 201 Watts for one minute, or for one hour or one stroke etc. <br /><br />Also, as Watts are Joules Per Second, you can't divide them by the strokes. I can see you doing this with the joules but not with the watts. You could say you did 201 watts per stroke, i.e. you produced 201 watts of power for 2.3 seconds.<br /><br />Watts is a measure of power.<br /><br />Joules, SPI, or trying to divide or multiply watts are not measures of power.