Upgrade used model C vs buying used model D? What to upgrade?

[Belgiansound]

Hi,

I'm looking for a rower, so obviously looking to buy a concept 2 as I prefer using them in the gym and they have a great reputation and support.

I'm on the fence if I should buy a model c with pm2, they are for sale for 300 euro in very used state. Or if I should spend 6-700 euro for a good model d with a pm4 or pm5.

Upgrading the model c with a pm5 and replacing the chain and handle is about 300 euro. So all in, the cost of refurbishing a model c is the same as buying a used model d.

Is it worth it? Is a used model d with a pm4 or pm5 reliable enough, or is it better to upgrade a c with new parts? They will never be as silent as a d but tbh that's not a huge issue as I play music anyway while rowing.

What should I look for in the model c, is the frame something which can also wear? The seat rollers can also be replaced, but is it worth it?

For the moment I was thinking of upgrading the pm5 and chain (and all needed wheels for the chain) and the elastic. I could buy every possible part, but that would be over 400 euro and I'm not sure some parts really wear that much

Thanks!

[Ombrax]

Welcome to the forum!

At a very high level, I'm thinking that two primary factors could potentially be driving your decision making: 1) How much of a rush you're in to get your own erg vs being patient a waiting for the perfect one at the best price, and 2) Whether or not you want to try to minimize the total cost. So those two factors are essentially time and money, and it's up to you do decide how you want to balance the two. Obviously at one end there's the "buy a brand new Row Erg right now" and on the other "wait patiently for a very inexpensive but low use Model C in excellent condition."

Once you've decided what approach you prefer regarding time vs money that will help guide your decisions. In my case, often I start to look for something, and when I can't find the a really good one at a good price I get tired of looking and end up getting a new one. Other times I buy the cheapest one I can find, just to see what it's like, and upgrade as required.

Since you're familiar the C2 products you probably have a feel for what a good one vs a bad one looks and feels like.

If I were you I'd start to look around and if a used C, D, or E (or even a Row Erg, although those are much more recent) is for sale at a relatively convenient location I'd check it out, with the following mindset: No matter the model, no matter what the PM is, If it's in very, very good condition and at a perfectly reasonable price I'd be prepared to buy it on the spot. If you have concerns about either the condition of the erg or the price I'd tell them "Well, I'm still looking around and I'm not sure. If I change my mind I'll call you back. Good luck selling it." I'd store the information about that erg in the back of my mind and move on with the search.

If after having seen a few for sale you still haven't been able to find one that works for you, then you'll have to decide if you want to change your criteria or if maybe you just won't ever find a used one that works for you. You can then decide if you want to go with a new one.

Finally, if you're willing to do the work, then just about everything on the erg is replaceable. The question is whether or not you want to go through the hassle of doing it. Some things are relatively easy to do (PM, chain, bungee, roller, etc). Others, like changing the flywheel bearing (and only the bearing) is a bigger job.

Good Luck

[Carl Watts]

Its more about just getting a Model C or a Model D in good condition.

Reality is they can still be thrashed to the point its junk. If you have to start replacing everything on it you may as well have just bought a new one to start with.

Personally I have always just bought a new Erg, that way you know what you are getting and the second hand prices can be just silly for something that's 20 years old so in my opinion its not worth it.

The different models may look similar but the Model D has gone through a number of refinements over the years and if you want a reliable monitor with connectivity then the PM5 is the way to go.

[Belgiansound]

Thanks a lot for your replies. I have been reading a lot about the technical side of the rower, the rail and the flywheel need to be good to even consider buying the rower, this will be the first thing to check. The chain I will probably anyway replace, so I can also add the silent package.

The rail is easy to check, no pits are damages on it and a smooth surface. The flywheel (bearing) I'm not sure how I can check this, with a car it starts making high pitch noises, not sure how you can hear it on a concept 2, though I think it's very unlikely.

+> I wonder if even the rail is an issue, I see it's only 20 GBP for a rail, part 1762

I'm actually hoping to find a rower with a broken PM2, as I anyway want to replace it.

For replacing the monitor + chain (and the needed wheels) and the bungee cord + bungee cord rollers and pulley it's 286 EUR

For replacing the rollers on the seat it would be another 32 euro. I am not sure if this has any added value, or if they should even wear at all.

Not sure if it makes sense to replace the handle, but this would be another 20 euro. I like the look of the wood, but my gym also had the newer version.

The seat itself is 18 euro, but I rarely see a seat which is not good anymore, they seem to be made out of vibranium

So if I would buy every part on the part list, it would be in total 356 EUR, but I would have a completely 'new' machine, except for the flywheel (bearings) and the rail.

A new machine over here, in Belgium, is 1140 EUR. I would like to pay maximum 200 euro if I need to replace also the seat and the bearings of the seat (together 50 ish euro). I I don't have to do the seat and I'm ok with the handle, it would be 'only' 286 EUR, so would be happy to pay 250 euro. Now I have to find somebody who wants to sell it for that price, in my mind the price for 2nd hand rowers is overpriced.

A new one seems tempting!

I'm going to see a rower today, only 1 picture in the add, so I'm curious to hear the story of the rower.


PS I noticed the Belgian webshop does not have all parts as does the UK shop, but I can't get a delivery from the UK shop to Belgium. Does anybody know a way around this? They sell complete kits with all wheels etc. in 1 package instead of needing to buy everything seperately.

[Belgiansound]

It's official, I'm the owner of a model C! I made the deal for a good price looking at the state of the machine, at 250 euro. It is very used though...

Pictures here below, it is very very well used, he owned it for 8 years and took it from a gym. The odometer says 73898, possible that it is much higher.

Even the footplates are badly worn from the foot holder, though it is not structurally affected (and will not replace it). The seat is partly broken at the front (from hitting the feet) and screeching when you row, the chain is noisy but looks quite ok (there is a lot of grease on the machine). On the upside, the PM2 is working BUT you need to push really hard on the buttons (probably just some alcohol needed to clean) and 1 of the battery contacts is eroded due to a leaking battery.
The rail is very dirty and worn, but it still works.
When opening up I discovered the chain has probably been running for YEARS on the shaft, not on the bearing itself, so this shaft is also heavily worn, though still functioning (not sure if I should replace this).
The bungee cord works fine, good tension, but it's a bit worn (hairs on it)
I also don't know why they cut 2 extra holes in the black plastic which is below the chain.


So I got what I wanted, a very used machine, for which in hindsight even 250 was maybe too much, but too late now, it's here and it's going to stay!

What to replace?

I would replace:
- chain + sockets + flywheel axle + bearings + wheels
=> so both together is the "Chain Axle Sprocket Replacement Kit Model C" + R8 bearings
- PM5 (incl tablet holder)
=> the main reason I would switch is because I guess it's a matter of time before the PM2 stops working, and I would need to buy an adapter for the PM to get the heart rate going. Or should I just keep using the PM2 until it falls apart? I'm not going to do fancy stuff.
- bungee cord and just to be sure the 4 wheels as well (or should I skimp on this one? There is some fraying on the cord). I'm also not sure about the wheels, they seemed fine but would hate it if everything works silently and there is an issue with the wheels...
- seat rollers + seat itself (rollers seem very very old)
- New D handle (or just give the wood one a clean?)
- some worn plastic stuff and foot straps (cheap)

I would also repaint the frame (the grey part, obviously not the rail part which actually looks fine)

[Belgiansound]

other pictures:

[Ombrax]

It seems like you have at least two options:

1) If you want to use it ASAP and don't mind doing some jobs twice you could do a complete tear down & cleanup and, assuming nothing is fatally compromised, put it all back together and use it for a while. One benefit of doing this is that you'll make a more informed decision later about what you really should replace and what you can live with as is. The down side is that you'll end up doing more work on the erg.

2) You can tear it all down (which it sounds like you're already done), order a bunch of new parts, and let it sit until the parts come in.

I would probably choose Option #1.

(Edit: The computer I'm using does not allow me to see the images you've posted, most likely because it's a work computer, and it's picky about what online sites can be accessed.)

[Belgiansound]

Thanks, I actually agree with you on this one as I really want to get started! I started cleaning and lubricating it, as I intend to probably rebuild it anyway I can not break anything more. Sound of the seat is annoying though.
Also noticed the sound is there because it is not running straight. The right bottom wheel is touching the rail, paint all gone, which probably is making this sound.
Great machine though, love how it keeps soldiering on

[Ombrax]

The right bottom wheel is touching the rail, paint all gone, which probably is making this sound.

You may well already know this, but the "lower" rollers below the rail shouldn't touch anything at all, and in general are there only to keep the seat in place if something really crazy is happening. In normal use the upper rollers go back and forth and stay in contact with the top of the rail at all times.

If the bottom rollers are touching something (other than the brackets that keep them in place) then something's wrong.

[Belgiansound]

Yes, something was wrong, 1 screw was missing in the seat bottom, causing the bracket to go sideways....really stupid issue, if the previous owner would have put in the screw the paint would have been perfect...same can be said for the chain though, as it has probably been running for 8 yeard on the shaft instead of the wheel, took me 5 min to notice

While dissasembling I noticed the nuts are not according to the metric system so all my tools are just too big or too small...

Does anybody know which imperial tools I need, the spanners and maybe other tools so I don't need to buy a complete set?

[Citroen]

While dissasembling I noticed the nuts are not according to the metric system so all my tools are just too big or too small...

Does anybody know which imperial tools I need, the spanners and maybe other tools so I don't need to buy a complete set?

It's an American thing, they're still using Imperial measures. The guides at https://www.concept2.com/service/indoor ... schematics have suggested metric sizes that will work (without tearing the corners off the bolts).

[Nomath]

...
=> the main reason I would switch is because I guess it's a matter of time before the PM2 stops working, and I would need to buy an adapter for the PM to get the heart rate going. Or should I just keep using the PM2 until it falls apart?
...

Why would the PM2 stop working soon if it is still operating now?

Out of curiosity: can you read the drag factor? If you set the drag factor at 120 and give the erg a couple of strong pulls, how long does it take before the flywheel stops spinning? It should keep moving for a couple of minutes if the bearings are OK.

Oh, looking at the picture of the handle. Shouldn't the brass swivel be turned 90 degrees?

[jackarabit]

A la carte resuscitation of mechanical cadavers is seldom cheap and cheerful. Time to have resort to The Greater Fool Theory of Reselling. And rotate the sacrificial bronze bushing to engage the circumferential notches with the curve of the u-bolt handle connector. Value added for the next victim of the ‘horse is a horse of course of course’ fallacy. Add 50 Euro to asking.

[Belgiansound]

...
=> the main reason I would switch is because I guess it's a matter of time before the PM2 stops working, and I would need to buy an adapter for the PM to get the heart rate going. Or should I just keep using the PM2 until it falls apart?
...

Why would the PM2 stop working soon if it is still operating now?

Out of curiosity: can you read the drag factor? If you set the drag factor at 120 and give the erg a couple of strong pulls, how long does it take before the flywheel stops spinning? It should keep moving for a couple of minutes if the bearings are OK.

Oh, looking at the picture of the handle. Shouldn't the brass swivel be turned 90 degrees?

Hi,

Regarding the PM2, it's just what I keep on reading everywhere, to replace the monitor as it's old tech which could break any time. Tbh, using it, it works just fine, I don't really need fancy stuff. I will probably take it apart to clean it and see on amazon if I can't find the battery thing and solder a new one to the board, I'm pretty comfortable soldering.

I have done some pulls, at 1 the drag factor was 98, at 10 it was 208. Off course fluctuating, but after a minute, these were the readings. I already took the seat off because the sound made me go mad, so this was done standing with 1 arm

[Belgiansound]

A la carte resuscitation of mechanical cadavers is seldom cheap and cheerful. Time to have resort to The Greater Fool Theory of Reselling. And rotate the sacrificial bronze bushing to engage the circumferential notches with the curve of the u-bolt handle connector. Value added for the next victim of the ‘horse is a horse of course of course’ fallacy. Add 50 Euro to asking.

Actually, I'm always too honest in my adds and not really into making profits on a resale. I could indeed easily sell this for 300 EUR, but would not feel good doing so

If they have a little notion of these machines they should also immediately see the wear on every part and the sound of the chain, which is very "present". TBH I think the monitor is the best part of this machine, after maybe a good cleaning. All moving parts are shot.

I also would just like to start rowing instead of looking out for the perfect rower, people seem to be asking such high prices for a low mileage D series (or rowerg). For a mildly used one, 3-5 yrs old, they are asking about 800 euro!