2k Training For Folks My Age

[old] anthonys · Post by **[old] anthonys** » December 26th, 2005, 9:20 pm

All right boys and girls, I'm a damn fit 67 year old w/ a Hx of marathoning and ultra-marathoning, albeit 25 years ago. I'd like to set an age category world record in the 2k, which, for my gender (M) and weight (164) looks like I'll have to get in the very, very low 7 minutes. I've been strength training using the HIT protocol for about 6 years now and have recently begun a routine that is specific to C2 rowing. I'm giving myself until February of 07 to prepare.<br /><br />I've read the Wolverine Plan, Pete's Plan, the UK plan, etc. While I have a currently measured HR max of 174, but very little in the way of rowing training, what training protocol should I follow to get to where I want to? Should I just pretend I'm 26 yoa and use the outline that goes w/ one of the plans? Should I just HR train w/in a specfic plan and over time just look to see my HR drop w/ increased intensity?<br /><br />All advice welcomed.<br /><br />tony

[old] Byron Drachman · Post by **[old] Byron Drachman** » December 26th, 2005, 9:44 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Should I just pretend I'm 26 </td></tr></table> <br /><br />Hi Tony,<br /><br />That's what I'm doing. I like the 2K interactive programme from the UK training guide. Good luck on setting a world record.<br /><br />Byron

[old] FrankJ · Post by **[old] FrankJ** » December 26th, 2005, 10:03 pm

Tony,<br /><br />I'm only 60 and a heavyweight but I have been rowing and improving for 3 years. There is a lot of technique involved in rowing and I would recommend that you do a lot of S10PS (strapless, 10 meters per stroke) type rowing. It would also be good to have someone knowledgeable watch you row to help prevent picking up bad habits early on. <br /><br />Frank

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » December 26th, 2005, 10:26 pm

Hi Tony,<br /><br />The Australian Program is excellent.<br /><br /><a href='http://www.concept2.com/forums/media/asrl.htm' target='_blank'>http://www.concept2.com/forums/media/asrl.htm</a><br /><br /><a href='http://concept2.ipbhost.com/index.php?s ... 5739&st=27&#' target='_blank'>http://concept2.ipbhost.com/index.php?s ... 7&#</a><br /><br />Your max HR is the same as mine. Keep me posted on your progress.

[old] jamesg · Post by **[old] jamesg** » December 27th, 2005, 5:28 am

Anthonys<br />Congratulations on choosing a reasonable target date, 2007. <br /><br />The first thing to do is to learn to row, especially as you're already fit. Pulling @ 20 and making the boat go as far as possible (>12m according to weight and height) at each stroke on low drag tells you what rowing is all about, and is probably as good as you can do without a coach. It will in any case teach your muscles what they have to do. Strapless will also show up the worst faults. There should be little difference with or without. <br /><br />A 7' 2k means pulling at 300W, of course for 7'; if the race rating is 30, this is 10W' per stroke and 210 strokes. In due time, try 200W at 20 for 30' or 6-700 strokes, and you'll have a good idea of what's needed for your WR. The 10W/stroke index can be a useful pace guide for all ratings, but at 67 and 70kg you may find it a bit tough, depends on your CV capacity. I use 9 and I weigh 88 kg tho' I could get to 80 without losing any muscle...<br /><br />For more and far better advice as to how to get there, see the Your Program thread next door and Xeno's answer. His program is all too devastatingly simple for ordinary mortals like me, but given his credentials, we cannot doubt the effectiveness.

[old] Byron Drachman · Post by **[old] Byron Drachman** » December 27th, 2005, 9:16 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>For more and far better advice as to how to get there, see the Your Program thread next door and Xeno's answer. His program is all too devastatingly simple for ordinary mortals like me, but given his credentials, we cannot doubt the effectiveness. </td></tr></table> <br /><br />Also, Xeno's DVD's are excellent. Everybody who uses them reports the same thing. They are fun and help with technique. In particular, his 3 by 6 cardio workout has you work on strength while at specified stroke rates such as 22,24,26 (and one last minute of 28.) Don't get discouraged if you can't cover the same distance as Xeno and Lucas do.<br /><br />Byron<br /><br />

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » December 27th, 2005, 1:06 pm

I respect JamesG's advice but going as far as possible with each stroke is not the only way to row and probably not even necessary, i.e. some World Champions never row that way.<br /><br />World Record holders Eskild Ebbesen and Elia Luina both race at ~ 41 strokes per minute and at 8 meters per stroke.<br /><br />Considering how strong they are as lightweights, I see no reason for any other lightweight to row more meters per stroke than they do.

[old] PaulS · Post by **[old] PaulS** » December 27th, 2005, 1:36 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Dec 27 2005, 09:06 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>I respect JamesG's advice but going as far as possible with each stroke is not the only way to row and probably not even necessary, i.e. some World Champions never row that way.<br /><br />World Record holders Eskild Ebbesen and Elia Luina both race at ~ 41 strokes per minute and at 8 meters per stroke.<br /><br />Considering how strong they are as lightweights, I see no reason for any other lightweight to row more meters per stroke than they do. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />John,<br /><br />You are misrepresenting the SR's of these lwts. Eskild tends to start out at SR=60 for several strokes and then into a far more "normal" 35-38 for the vast majority of his Erg piece, the Average of 41, just takes a long time to arrive at from the original skewed blip from the beginning. You should be aware of this due to your self-proclaimed expertise in statistics, however since it doesn't fit your low DPS agenda you ignore the reality. Having viewed an entire race by Eskild, he is at or around a SR=41 for very few strokes. Perhaps you should look at the "mode" for a more accurate summation of the "rate at which Eskild Races".

[old] anthonys · Post by **[old] anthonys** » December 27th, 2005, 1:49 pm

I really appreciate your feedback, folks. My goal may be a bit more than I can accomplish, but, it'll be worth a try. Clearly, rowing is far more technical than I had thought it to be, what the multiplicity of variables present, not only with respect to the activity itself, but also in interaction w/ HR, lactate, etc.<br /><br />thanks again for your help,<br /><br />tony

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » December 27th, 2005, 2:22 pm

I have a video tape of Eskild Ebbesen through an entire race.<br /><br />There is at no time that he goes at 60 spm, and at no time does he go as low as 35 spm.<br /><br />Eskild has a higher stroke rate at the beginning and finish, as he is rowing faster at those times. He averages 38 to 39 spm through the middle, and is going slower than the average at those times. His 41.3 strokes per minute is his average through the entire 2k, and represents his stroke rate at the pace that he averages for the 2k.<br />

[old] PaulS · Post by **[old] PaulS** » December 27th, 2005, 2:59 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Dec 27 2005, 10:22 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>I have a video tape of Eskild Ebbesen through an entire race.<br /><br />He averages 38 to 39 spm through the middle, and is going slower than the average at those times.<br /> <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />While at the same time maintaining as much speed as he could, I'm sure he would have liked to have gone sub-6 if it were possible for him to have done so.<br /><br />So your conclusion that he is rowing at 8m/stroke is also bogus. It's more like 9, with some short stints of much less than 8 to arrive at the average DPS around 8m/stroke. I.e. He does not Erg at 8m/stroke.<br /><br />Are you suggesting that he would be faster if only he followed your advice?

[old] jamesg · Post by **[old] jamesg** » December 27th, 2005, 3:23 pm

I wrote those "big" numbers because A's target is 7', not 6' as Luini and his colleagues can do. If they were to do a 2k in 7' just for the fun of it, I wonder what rating they would use. For a 6' 2k we need 450W, which at rating 40 is 11Wminutes/stroke. At 7' the power needed is 300W, so my guess is 26 or less, and 10m per stroke easily... cruising.<br /><br />Anyway there's no obligation, and if A wants to pull 35@8.5W'/stroke, he's free to, but it'll take some learning; although the overall CV load is apparently the same, there will be greater energy loss in changing direction more often, and possible losses of length and efficiency.<br /><br />We have to remember that oft cited L and E are highly skilled oarsmen who presumably have long solved those problems. Also, and if I remember well (alas 45 years have gone past) a 4-, as well as being a boat that allows a very fast recovery, has a gearing that enables a very fast pull too, as it must for tall LWs. It also requires perfect technique and agility to rate high, which may not be available to a novice 67yo. To rate 40 in a four and still pull a useful stroke, keep together and the boat moving fast is no mean feat; they give away gold medals for that. We cannot expect a novice to be as good technically as Olympic oarsmen when they get on the erg - so a different type of trade-off emerges: brute force for style as well as rating.

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » December 27th, 2005, 3:37 pm

Eskild Ebbesen races by taking 250 strokes in his 2k's<br /><br />2000 meters / 250 strokes = 8 meters per stroke.

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » December 27th, 2005, 3:38 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Dec 27 2005, 10:59 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>So your conclusion that he is rowing at 8m/stroke is also bogus. It's more like 9, with some short stints of much less than 8 to arrive at the average DPS around 8m/stroke. I.e. He does not Erg at 8m/stroke.[right] </td></tr></table><br /><br />You are wrong again. |D|0T<br />

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » December 27th, 2005, 3:40 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(jamesg @ Dec 27 2005, 11:23 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>if A wants to pull 35@8.5W'/stroke, he's free to, but it'll take some learning; although the overall CV load is apparently the same efficiency.[right] </td></tr></table><br />I agree it takes some learning, but not as much nor as fruitless as trying to row as fast at 20 spm.<br /><br /><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>there will be greater energy loss in changing direction more often, and possible losses of length </td></tr></table><br />Are you saying that I, or anyone, would be faster in a 2k at 20 spm than at 35 spm?<br /><br /><br />