Runner to Rower advice.

[ET4]

I've turned to rowing as a joint friendly form of exercise.
As a background I'm a fit 48 yr old running 5k+ 3x per week (knees permitting...)
Currently rowing for 30 mins @ 5120m - 25 s/m 70 watts, avg heart rate 138bpm - concentrating on form.

My question is, I have no idea what these figures should be.
What I mean is, should I be looking to improve the watts? (not sure how they are calculated) or distance over time? etc etc.
While I am a newbie to rowing, from a fitness perspective I'm not starting from scratch if you like.
A few pointers would be appreciated.

Cheers.

[gilles13006]

Hey,

Welcome ! Here are some « standards ».

Some people like to look at watts but many others prefer to look at pace (time/500m).

A rowing training is approx 30min to 1h training. 80% of your trainings should be aerobic (long distances, low cardio) and 20% anaerobic like intervals or pyramids trainings. 3-4 sessions per week is great. But every stroke is useful ! So if you only have 15min, just row, it’s ok.

Most important thing to get the right form is to permanently show the force curve N/LBS on your PM5 screen. I never ro without it since it shows you when your form is bad, or begin to be bad when the fatigue comes in. It’s an excellent way to stay focus on technique to look at this curve.

DRAG FACTOR ! Very important thing you have to document on. Drag factor is a value that says the real resistance of wheel. You must not refer to the 1 to 10 values near the wheel, since it’s only a visual indicator of drag factor. You will need practice to determine which DF fits the best to you. I row at 130 DF.

Rowing machine is a polyvalente machine: you can do sprint or marathons. The form has to be the same, but with different pace and spm. Generally, low spm is 18 spm, fast spm is 30 (approx). I quite never go above 26-27 spm, except if i do a sprint (like 500m or 1000m). I traditionally row at 22-23 spm on my 5k-10k-half marathons.

There is one « official distance » in « on the water » (OTW) rowing: 2000m. Since rowerg has been designed to help rowers for training for this distance, many trainings plan refer to 2000m. But don’t stick too much with that, especially if your goal is fitness.

Your logbook accessible by official concept2 website is a goldmine of information, challenges, trainings, etc. Like this forum. Also, you can read the official rowerg manual training for learning many useful things. It’s very well written and not boring at all. It’s a must have read. Finally, if you want to compare performance with others, go to « rankings » on your logbook.

The most difficult thing beginners have is not to get bored on rowerg. I am quite a geek so i focus on technique and performance, i don’t get bored at all. You can have music also, very motivating.

Don’t forgot to look many videos on youtube or instagram (my prefered one is Trainingtall, very funny guy with very good explanations).

Gilles

[Dangerscouse]

Welcome to the forum.

I only ever look at at reducing time or increasing distance. Probably the main difference between rowing and running is the greater ability to row slow and steady, or fast and furious. Running cadence isn't as easily altered.

If you're doing a 30 minute session this could be rowed at r20 (20spm) at a steady pace or at r28 at a relatively fast pace. Both are good, and both are necessary for training.

As a rough guide, if you're fitter you'll use a higher stroke rate, and if you're stronger you'll use a lower stroke rate, and I recommend getting comfortable with a range of stroke rates.

[Ombrax]

My question is, I have no idea what these figures should be.

Don't worry too much about what they "should" be, but focus instead on how you'll improve.

Having said that, here are a few thoughts about where your are now:

70 watts is a pace of 2:51 / 500 m (as was mentioned above, that's the basic measure of how fast you're going. The C2 web site has several "calculators" that allow you to convert this stuff, and they also give you the equations if you want to program them into Excel or whatever, to generate spreadsheets). Another way of seeing how fast you went is based on the total time and distance. Using 5120m in 30 minutes I calculate an average pace of 2:56, which is pretty close to 2:51, so it all fits together. To put it gently, an average pace of 2:51 means that you have plenty of room to improve.

Since you're a total newbie it may be that your technique is way off, preventing you from using your existing fitness. Either that or you really weren't trying hard at all. Many of the folks here are doing 5k's at a pace around 2:00 / 500m. Some do that without even breaking a sweat, for others at that pace they probably feel like they're about to die by the time (or if) they get to the end.

Bottom line: The C2 web site has lots of super-useful information on technique and training - check it out and go from there.

Here's a good place to start: https://www.concept2.com/indoor-rowers/training

Good Luck

[jamesg]

A few pointers would be appreciated.

Rowing depends entirely on how the stroke is pulled. This can be seen here:

https://www.concept2.com/indoor-rowers/ ... que-videos

The legs do most of the work, but when rowing, the forces they generate go through body and arms. The sequential technique needed is not instinctive and can feel strange when starting, but is very effective.

This technique ensures a long fast stroke pulled hard with the legs, and plenty of rest before the next one.

The amount of Power we can input to the erg depends on our size, age and sex. Using standard technique a 48y M will be able to generate around 2W/kg at low training ratings (18-23). This can equate to a large amount of power, so you may prefer to row short distances while learning.

[Ombrax]

Using standard technique a 48y M will be able to generate around 2W/kg at low training ratings (18-23).

I've always thought that 2 W/kg is setting the bar pretty high for newbies, especially for any significant time or distance.

If you weigh 175 lbs (79.38 kg) that works out to ~2:10 pace, if 190 lbs (88.45 kg) that's ~2:06.5 pace. Certainly not earth-shattering paces, but challenging for many (most?) newcomers, unless they're in pretty good shape and have good technique.

[ET4]

Just what I needed!
Thanks for the info guys.
I'm pretty short for a rower (5' 4") so I'll have to sus out how this affects stroke, power etc.
I'll definitely check out the help sources you mentioned.
Glad to be on here! cheers.

[jamesg]

I've always thought that 2 W/kg is setting the bar pretty high for newbies

So it is, at least at rating 20, it takes style and some strength. But there's no obligation, and in the end 2 is not 2.00, so means anything from 1.5 to 2.5 according to age. The intent is to make it clear that rowing is a power sport, and the sooner we find out what Power means, the better.

At 80kg 2W/kg is 160W, a 40kg stroke of length 1.2m to be pulled at rating 20. This should be well within the capability of most at 80kg. At least for a short time, but that's a question of fitness, not skill.

[p_b82]

I've always thought that 2 W/kg is setting the bar pretty high for newbies, especially for any significant time or distance.

As a newbie to rowing I can confirm that 2w per kg is exceptionally tough to maintain over time/distance.

I'm 200lbs/91kg (should be a little leaner but that's why I bought the erg so I can rectify that) - which works out as 2:04 pace; I have no chance to maintain that over any distance as it stands.

My longer 45-60min sessions it's been 2:35/2:36@22spm - only a fraction over 1w/kg; but that's kept my hr closer to the effort level I want to achieve ~150bpm average.

My fastest sustainable pace is 2:27@15-24spm for 30-45min rows is only 1.2w/kg at an average hr for ~160bpm

My current fastest unsustainable pace - taken 30mins into a bad session I knew I was cutting short - is 1:44@30spm. Which is 3.4w/kg. I didn't maintain that for long...

That all said - to the OP, when starting out, my suggestion is to not focus on pace, and just get comfortable in your rhythm, find a stroke rate & drag factor that feels "right" and look towards increasing pace/distances when it's all starting to feel natural and flowing - using the force curve as suggested earlier helps there I found.

[mitchel674]

Hey,

Welcome ! Here are some « standards ».

Some people like to look at watts but many others prefer to look at pace (time/500m).

A rowing training is approx 30min to 1h training. 80% of your trainings should be aerobic (long distances, low cardio) and 20% anaerobic like intervals or pyramids trainings. 3-4 sessions per week is great. But every stroke is useful ! So if you only have 15min, just row, it’s ok.

Most important thing to get the right form is to permanently show the force curve N/LBS on your PM5 screen. I never ro without it since it shows you when your form is bad, or begin to be bad when the fatigue comes in. It’s an excellent way to stay focus on technique to look at this curve.

DRAG FACTOR ! Very important thing you have to document on. Drag factor is a value that says the real resistance of wheel. You must not refer to the 1 to 10 values near the wheel, since it’s only a visual indicator of drag factor. You will need practice to determine which DF fits the best to you. I row at 130 DF.

Rowing machine is a polyvalente machine: you can do sprint or marathons. The form has to be the same, but with different pace and spm. Generally, low spm is 18 spm, fast spm is 30 (approx). I quite never go above 26-27 spm, except if i do a sprint (like 500m or 1000m). I traditionally row at 22-23 spm on my 5k-10k-half marathons.

There is one « official distance » in « on the water » (OTW) rowing: 2000m. Since rowerg has been designed to help rowers for training for this distance, many trainings plan refer to 2000m. But don’t stick too much with that, especially if your goal is fitness.

Your logbook accessible by official concept2 website is a goldmine of information, challenges, trainings, etc. Like this forum. Also, you can read the official rowerg manual training for learning many useful things. It’s very well written and not boring at all. It’s a must have read. Finally, if you want to compare performance with others, go to « rankings » on your logbook.

The most difficult thing beginners have is not to get bored on rowerg. I am quite a geek so i focus on technique and performance, i don’t get bored at all. You can have music also, very motivating.

Don’t forgot to look many videos on youtube or instagram (my prefered one is Trainingtall, very funny guy with very good explanations).

Gilles

Great post @gille13006 !!!

[mitchel674]

Using standard technique a 48y M will be able to generate around 2W/kg at low training ratings (18-23).

I've always thought that 2 W/kg is setting the bar pretty high for newbies, especially for any significant time or distance.

If you weigh 175 lbs (79.38 kg) that works out to ~2:10 pace, if 190 lbs (88.45 kg) that's ~2:06.5 pace. Certainly not earth-shattering paces, but challenging for many (most?) newcomers, unless they're in pretty good shape and have good technique.

I agree. I always cringe when Jamesg posts that metric. That is a tall order for me to sustain even after rowing a few years.

[Sakly]

I started rowing Jan '22. 80kg bodyweight that time, 41 years old. Did my first HM after 2 weeks on the erg with 221W average, but had much background from bodyweight training. So for me that metric sounds practical, but it absolutely depends on the personal point of view

[jamesg]

I'm 200lbs/91kg (should be a little leaner but that's why I bought the erg so I can rectify that) - which works out as 2:04 pace; I have no chance to maintain that over any distance as it stands.

You can use as weight, BMI = 23 H² where H = height in meters.

2 W/kg at low rating is a target that can be reached by using standard rowing style that engages the legs. The distance over which you can hold it will increase with training.

My longer 45-60min sessions it's been 2:35/2:36@22spm - only a fraction over 1w/kg

Rowing very long pieces requires both style and fitness a priori, you can't start there. You'd be forced into rowing badly with a weak stroke, which is useless in that it offers no training effect.

I think you can get better results by doing at most say 3x 5' or 5x 3' as hard as possible, at low rates, not more than 22. Your strength, waste removal, endurance etc can only improve if stressed; this loading doesn't take a long time on the erg, if you use the legs: these are strong already and only need a few minutes to cause collapse if put to full use. You can see this by climbing a few flights of stairs.

[Dangerscouse]

That all said - to the OP, when starting out, my suggestion is to not focus on pace, and just get comfortable in your rhythm, find a stroke rate & drag factor that feels "right" and look towards increasing pace/distances when it's all starting to feel natural and flowing - using the force curve as suggested earlier helps there I found.

Agreed. If you want to sustainably progress you need to master the basics. Pace will increase eventually, but going slower at the beginning is the part of the process.

It's harder for people who are already really good at a different sport. Becoming an absolute beginner is a tough pill to swallow for many.

[p_b82]

I'm 200lbs/91kg (should be a little leaner but that's why I bought the erg so I can rectify that) - which works out as 2:04 pace; I have no chance to maintain that over any distance as it stands.

You can use as weight, BMI = 23 H² where H = height in meters.

2 W/kg at low rating is a target that can be reached by using standard rowing style that engages the legs. The distance over which you can hold it will increase with training.

My longer 45-60min sessions it's been 2:35/2:36@22spm - only a fraction over 1w/kg

Rowing very long pieces requires both style and fitness a priori, you can't start there. You'd be forced into rowing badly with a weak stroke, which is useless in that it offers no training effect.

I think you can get better results by doing at most say 3x 5' or 5x 3' as hard as possible, at low rates, not more than 22. Your strength, waste removal, endurance etc can only improve if stressed; this loading doesn't take a long time on the erg, if you use the legs: these are strong already and only need a few minutes to cause collapse if put to full use. You can see this by climbing a few flights of stairs.

I do appreciate the response, and without wanting to go too OT from the OP's thread, I personally can't stand doing intervals (as mentioned on my thread when I asked for advice myself).

So my aims are all about seat time; an hour's exercise is "right" for me - yes it might be "sub optimal" in terms of seeing a maximised rate of improvement, but this method is one that has worked for me in other sports I've previously started as a novice and become moderately competent by the end. (cycling 20 years ago, and swimming in the past ~5 years). In both those cases, I've seen vast improvements over 12 months, and then another step after a further 12 months.

Might be too slow for some, but it works for me