Training To Break 1:14 - 500m

[btlifter]

To an earlier question of yours, Tsnor - yes, that's a reasonable definition for a 'weightlifting shoe'. It might be helpful to clarify that weightlifting and powerlifting are different sports though and that many powerlifting shoes will be flat-soled (no heel drop).

The similarity between powerlifting and weightlifting shoes is the hard sole. This is because any cushioning will inevitably lose to some amount of force. As you say, elastic energy is stored when we bend our knees, but foam shoes will absorb some if that elasticity, whereas a perfectly hard sole will (theoretically) ensure that all elasticity is maintained in the body. Here's an expert talking about it:

"Martyn Shorten, biomechanics expert and head of the Runner’s World Shoe Lab, uses a device that compresses the soles of shoes then measures the percentage of the input energy that is recovered during rebound. A shoe that returned all of the energy would score 100 percent. Most shoes with traditional EVA foam tend to fall in the 50 to 60th percentiles. The best new foams are returning 70+ percent of the energy.

That still leaves 30 percent of the energy that sinks into the shoe, being lost to heat. So don’t expect any superhuman propulsion pushing you along."

-https://www.runnersworld.com/gear/a2085 ... our-shoes/

It's also worth mention that, until the recent use of carbon foot plates, runners typically trained in well-cushioned shoes. (The idea being that these shoes would make running easier on one's body) But they would typically race in "racing flats". As thin, flat shoes result in less loss of force.

As far as what the elite sprinters are doing for footwear, most seem to be wearing a CrossFit show (with Nike MetCons & Reebok Nanos) being the most popular. Essentially, these shoes are intended to mostly mimic weightlifting shoes, while being comfortable and flexible enough to be able to be used for a variety of activities. I think that Phil Clapp and Chris Scott both wear Olympic lifting shoes, whereas I wear flat-aoled powerlifting shoes.

Finally, regarding the 4% claim from the Vaporflys - that was a measured 4% improvement in total running economy, not energy return. Perhaps more importantly, it was compared to other running shoes, not compared to barefoot striking. In fact, in that same article it states that the energy return was 80% (the highest they had ever seen) in thr Vaporfly. I have never seen any research dome on powerlifting/weightlifting shoes' energy returns, but eith a stationary foot I would bet it would be much higher than 80%.

*For reference, I was a competitive powerlifter and coach for many years. Subsequent to that - but prior to rowing - I became a mediocre long-distance runner for a few years. And, I'm a big shoe nerd! Of course none of those things makes me any sort of authority; they are just to say that I have spent a long time thinking about this problem from a variety of perspectives.

[Tsnor]

... I have never seen any research done on powerlifting/weightlifting shoes' energy returns, but with a stationary foot I would bet it would be much higher than 80%.

If you did a series of standing jumps up and down in lifting shoes would you jump as high as with sneakers? Or higher? Or no difference ?

[btlifter]

... I have never seen any research done on powerlifting/weightlifting shoes' energy returns, but with a stationary foot I would bet it would be much higher than 80%.

If you did a series of standing jumps up and down in lifting shoes would you jump as high as with sneakers? Or higher? Or no difference ?

I'd jump lower, for a fewreasons, none of which is particularly relevant on the erg:
1. Weifhtlifting shoes are much heavier.
2. A significant contributor to one's jumping velocity is the forceful plantarflexion of the feet.
3. Landing would be uncomfortable. I'd expect this discomfort to trigger some sort of minor muscular inhibition whereby I absorb the landing force more tentatively, and so forfeit elasticity in my muscles.

But it's not because the running shoes would act as some sort of bouncer. To the contrary, despite what shoe marketing execs allude to (e.g Nike Shox), running shoes primarily function as a shock-absorber, not a spring.

[Tsnor]

But it's not because the running shoes would act as some sort of bouncer. To the contrary, despite what shoe marketing execs allude to (e.g Nike Shox), running shoes primarily function as a shock-absorber, not a spring.

The midsole acts as a spring in running shoes, that could be a primary or secondary secondary. The foam used by vaporfly in particular has a very high coefficient of restitution. - the amount of energy returned as spring energy vs the amount converted to heat like a shock absorber. That's the 80% number -- the amount of energy returned as a spring vs shock absorber. A different foam would make a better shock absorber.

That said.... I was wrong. I agree that lifting shoes, especially powerlifting shoes without a heel lift, are EXCELLENT rowing shoes.

It's clear the shoes used in the OTW boats I row have ZERO foam, zero spring, zero energy store, zero rebound. Sure sounds like shell makers agree that flat, no flex, no spring shoes are best for rowing. But this could be an older position, what would you do if you started from scratch to make an excellent shoe for rowing?

USROWING cut a shoe deal with New Balance back in 2015.

"The shoe is designed with rowers in mind, ensuring agility and comfort for erging and weight training.

"In 2015, New Balance seeded footwear to U.S. National Team athletes and conducted focus groups to assess what properties were most important in a training shoe for rowers.

"As a result, the New Balance Minimus 20v5 Trainer was identified as the best-performing land rowing and training shoe available and appropriately designated as the Official Training Shoe of the USRowing National Team”.

I couldn't find anyone designing a foam core or any spring loading in any shoe used for rowing. Not H2Row, Addidas or Nike. New Balance even calls out weight training as an alternative use for the shoe. For me, good discussion, I learned something. Now I'm thinking about alternatives to erging in my running shoes.

[Dangerscouse]

For me, good discussion, I learned something. Now I'm thinking about alternatives to erging in my running shoes.

Very good discussion. I erged in running shoes for years, but I do think that since using Metcons it has got better. Maybe it's slightly a self-fulfilling prophecy but I'm sure it is worth doing.

[MartinSH4321]

Very interesting discussion, thanks for all the imput and links!
Personally, I use barefoot shoes for all my training (rowing, weights, running, biking). For rowing and weights they are pretty perfect, for biking shoes with clips are propably better and running with 100kg+ is slower and hit the calves pretty hard, but it's convenient to have a few training shoes I can use for all trainings.

[btlifter]

This was fun Tsnor; it reminded me of this quote:
"We question all our beliefs, except for the ones that we really believe in, and those we never think to question."

Like the quote, I interrogate all of my beliefs... except the ones I assume are true, hahaha

Oh, and I'm with you, Martin. Barefoot shoes are my preferred runners!

[JaapvanE]

That said.... I was wrong. I agree that lifting shoes, especially powerlifting shoes without a heel lift, are EXCELLENT rowing shoes.

If nobody questioned the status quo, we'd still be living in trees.

I bought cheap barefoot shoes through Amazon. The sole is milimeters thick, which I like. But the material is made for watershoes and thus is quite sweaty. Still looking for better alternatives.

[Joebasscat]

Might I suggest "Xero Shoes". The HFS model is the winner for me.

[Dangerscouse]

If nobody questioned the status quo, we'd still be living in trees.

This!!

Progress is predicated on the unreasonable person who won't accept the usual way of doing things.

[Erik A]

i am wanting to use the barefoot shoes but here in NZ there seems to be a real lack of shops that sell them and i want to try them on before i buy. i understand the sizing may be a bit weird. in particular the 5 fingers from Vibram. i run around (when not at work) in barefeet and jandles regardless of temp or terrain so my feet are pretty tough. and i find that when i wear sports shoes my feet heat up something wicked.

[Ombrax]

i am wanting to use the barefoot shoes but here in NZ there seems to be a real lack of shops that sell them and i want to try them on before i buy. i understand the sizing may be a bit weird. in particular the 5 fingers from Vibram. i run around (when not at work) in barefeet and jandles regardless of temp or terrain so my feet are pretty tough. and i find that when i wear sports shoes my feet heat up something wicked.

In my experience, 5 Fingers Mens' KSO size 44 = US 10.5

[JaapvanE]

Might I suggest "Xero Shoes". The HFS model is the winner for me.

I've been looking into them. How breathable are they?

[Erik A]

i am wanting to use the barefoot shoes but here in NZ there seems to be a real lack of shops that sell them and i want to try them on before i buy. i understand the sizing may be a bit weird. in particular the 5 fingers from Vibram. i run around (when not at work) in barefeet and jandles regardless of temp or terrain so my feet are pretty tough. and i find that when i wear sports shoes my feet heat up something wicked.

In my experience, 5 Fingers Mens' KSO size 44 = US 10.5

bit small for me lol im a size 13-14 depending on shoe brand and it looks like the five fingers only go up to 13.5

[Joebasscat]

JaapvanE - I find they do vey well on that front.Been using them about a year now and how shall I say… they are still fresh. I only use them for rowing though.