New World Record

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » December 20th, 2005, 3:55 am

Hi One,<br /><br />I prefer to do my tests on the slides and the erg, as these are more reliable than conjecture.<br /><br />If objective results are not what you are looking for then I am not able to help you.<br /><br />Cheers.

[old] onethirtyfive · Post by **[old] onethirtyfive** » December 20th, 2005, 5:13 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Dec 20 2005, 05:55 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Hi One,<br /><br />I prefer to do my tests on the slides and the erg, as these are more reliable than conjecture.<br /><br />If objective results are not what you are looking for then I am not able to help you.<br /><br />Cheers. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br /><br />I am John that is why I need your help, I am looking for 'objective' results. Looking back thru the forum the position you are taking now is the same one you took BEFORE you had slides and BEFORE you conducted your own tests, so I assumed you must have had other 'objective' results, thats all.<br /><br />I would like to see your point of view but you have only conducted tests up to 1:00 long, so you said (and you have not spent a lot of time on the slides till you are able to set them up for longer). Are you basing your whole position on that, you seem to be talking from a position of extensive knowledge.<br /><br />I would like to be able to understand your point of view, really, but surly you understand that I would need more to go on that what you have said so far.<br /><br />Hope you can assist<br /><br />cheers

[old] PaulS · Post by **[old] PaulS** » December 20th, 2005, 10:54 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Dec 19 2005, 10:02 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>PaulS,<br /><br />You claim that a 250 pound man and a 105 pound woman have the same advantages on the erg, and that there is no physical difference between them.<br /><br />You have claimed that muscles don't weigh anything.<br /><br />You insisted that Rod Freed got injured in college even though quotation from him was that it was 15 years after and at the Long Beach Rowing Association.<br /><br />You say the slides are slower even though it has been proven many times they are faster.<br /><br />You state that studies based on heart rates or "feelings" and that are biased are conclusive, and you disregard the actual time trials done by many that prove otherwise.<br /><br />Such jumping to false conclusions of yours has not proven anything, other than reaffirming my previous messages. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />John,<br /><br />Please stop lying about things I have said.<br /><br />I'll clarify your current lunatic ravings:<br /><br />While a 250lb male and a 105lb Female are very different physically (as could be 2 different 250lb males), the Erg is the same for both. What both can possibly cause to happen on the Erg, now that is a completely different matter. Both have to produce the same amount of power to achieve a given split.<br /><br />I've never said anything about muscles being massless. Well, there was the discussion regarding Erging in orbit, but that's weightless, not massless.<br /><br />I asked a question regarding Freed's Back injury, I had not studied his timline as carefully as you, and frankly couldn't care less about the guy, I do not know the man, and he has kept himself an enigma.<br /><br />I say the slides require just as much, if not slightly more, athletic output for a given pace because it has been shown in scientific studies. I was on the side that they must be an advantage when first exposed to them, but that was based on the same incorrect intuition that you are continuing to hold sacred for yourself.<br /><br />Individual time trials have variations even if they are both done on the slides or off, experiments of one are not exactly convincing. I'd rather see controlled studies, as I have.<br /><br />There have also been extended discussion as to why there is no such thing as a "static erg" that has settled the issue for me, and maybe even some others. I know not everyone agrees as of yet, but these things take time.<br /><br />I've not had any problem with agreeing with you when you manage to get something right, though I am coming to think that those are times that you have simply made a mistake in your thinking process because you are generally soon to come out on the opposite side.<br />

[old] Dickie · Post by **[old] Dickie** » December 20th, 2005, 11:57 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Dec 19 2005, 04:19 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Godfried @ Dec 19 2005, 12:12 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>And what do we read at the top of that page?<br /><br />. . .<br /><br />*Please note that all 2000 meter record-breaking times must be rowed at a Concept2 sanctioned indoor rowing event with witnesses present. In addition all 2000 meter record-breaking times must be rowed on Concept2 Indoor Rowers without Slides.<br /><br />. . . <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />I see no reason that the French team trials could not be "sanctioned by C2", is there a question whether slides were used? Is anyone seriously contesting the fact that she accomplished the performance? Or is this another case of suggesting that a coach is skewing the numbers for some reason or another? <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />I see no team here, the article says 1 rower and 1 coach were present, this is clearly not an event. While I do believe Ms. Balmary did achieve a world record performance and I applaud the effort, this was not an event according to the rules.<br /><br />If you are now going to change the rules or start making exceptions, then Dwayne Adams effort must also be included for his effort had the same verification and was an event to the extent that Ms Balmary's performance was an event.<br /><br />I was willing to go along with Concept2's decision vis-a-vis Dwayne because in most other sports you have to be in a sanctioned competition to achieve world records. Even national trials, when they are competitions, count for world records, but in this case, this was not a competition, it was a single rower with a coach not a competition.<br /><br />In my opinion Concept2's credibility and integrity are on the line with this one. Either abide by your own rules and restore the old record or change the rules and award Dwayne Adams the record he deserves.

[old] arakawa · Post by **[old] arakawa** » December 20th, 2005, 12:24 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Dickie @ Dec 20 2005, 10:57 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>I see no team here, the article says 1 rower and 1 coach were present, this is clearly not an event. While I do believe Ms. Balmary did achieve a world record performance and I applaud the effort, this was not an event according to the rules.<br /><br />If you are now going to change the rules or start making exceptions, then Dwayne Adams effort must also be included for his effort had the same verification and was an event to the extent that Ms Balmary's performance was an event.<br /><br />I was willing to go along with Concept2's decision vis-a-vis Dwayne because in most other sports you have to be in a sanctioned competition to achieve world records. Even national trials, when they are competitions, count for world records, but in this case, this was not a competition, it was a single rower with a coach not a competition.<br /><br />In my opinion Concept2's credibility and integrity are on the line with this one. Either abide by your own rules and restore the old record or change the rules and award Dwayne Adams the record he deserves.[right] </td></tr></table><br />Without applying judgment to the relative validity of Dwayne Adams's time and Sophie Balmary's time, <a href='http://concept2.ipbhost.com/index.php?s ... =490&st=40' target='_blank'>Dwayne's letter from C2 regarding his record time</a> said (italics added):<br /><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>All 2K World Records must be done at a sanctioned race such as CRASH-B, any of the 20 Satellite regattas or any of the National Championship regattas held in countries around the world. <i>We also accept times from any country's National Team selection trials</i>. </td></tr></table><br />The <a href='http://www.worldrowing.com/news/fullsto ... 6985&itype' target='_blank'>article from worldrowing.com</a> states<br /><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Balmary set the new world record during the first of two French national team tests for the season at the national training centre in Toulouse, France with just her coach Michel Colard watching quietly at her side. </td></tr></table><br />My opinion is that the argument is now reduced to whether or not this national team test was a national team selection trial.

[old] Ralph Earle · Post by **[old] Ralph Earle** » December 20th, 2005, 12:35 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(arakawa @ Dec 20 2005, 04:24 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><br /><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>All 2K World Records must be done at a sanctioned race such as CRASH-B, any of the 20 Satellite regattas or any of the National Championship regattas held in countries around the world. <i>We also accept times from any country's National Team selection trials</i>. </td></tr></table><br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br /><br />SELECTION TRIALS ARE NOT THE SAME AS RACES!<br /><br />In a time trial the clock starts when the monitor detects motion in the flywheel. In a race the clock starts when e-row says ROW!<br /><br />Was Ms. Balmary's performance started by e-row? <br /><br />If not, then unless she could react to ROW! and get the flywheel moving in one tenth of a second, it hardly seems fair to Ms Evers-Swindell to say that Ms Balmary was faster.<br />

[old] PaulS · Post by **[old] PaulS** » December 20th, 2005, 12:43 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Dickie @ Dec 20 2005, 07:57 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Dec 19 2005, 04:19 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Godfried @ Dec 19 2005, 12:12 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>And what do we read at the top of that page?<br /><br />. . .<br /><br />*Please note that all 2000 meter record-breaking times must be rowed at a Concept2 sanctioned indoor rowing event with witnesses present. In addition all 2000 meter record-breaking times must be rowed on Concept2 Indoor Rowers without Slides.<br /><br />. . . <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />I see no reason that the French team trials could not be "sanctioned by C2", is there a question whether slides were used? Is anyone seriously contesting the fact that she accomplished the performance? Or is this another case of suggesting that a coach is skewing the numbers for some reason or another? <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />I see no team here, the article says 1 rower and 1 coach were present, this is clearly not an event. While I do believe Ms. Balmary did achieve a world record performance and I applaud the effort, this was not an event according to the rules.<br /><br />If you are now going to change the rules or start making exceptions, then Dwayne Adams effort must also be included for his effort had the same verification and was an event to the extent that Ms Balmary's performance was an event.<br /><br />I was willing to go along with Concept2's decision vis-a-vis Dwayne because in most other sports you have to be in a sanctioned competition to achieve world records. Even national trials, when they are competitions, count for world records, but in this case, this was not a competition, it was a single rower with a coach not a competition.<br /><br />In my opinion Concept2's credibility and integrity are on the line with this one. Either abide by your own rules and restore the old record or change the rules and award Dwayne Adams the record he deserves. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />"Balmary set the new world record during the first of two <b>French national team tests </b>for the season at the national training centre in Toulouse, France with just her coach Michel Colard watching quietly at her side."<br /><br />I do see the <i>team</i>, and team tests were certainly an <i>event</i> when I was taking part in them.<br /><br />I'm certainly not the one who makes the rules, and at the same time have no problem with Dwayne's performance, also note that Joan Van Blom's final USIRT trial broke her own WR but is not included in the official list at this time.<br /><br />Would a video recorded test be credible? Yet it could still not qualify as an official WR under the rules. Do you have a similar problem with that?<br /><br />Ralph makes a very good point that I hadn't thought of, and with a 0.2 margin, the start sequence could well be significant. Perhaps we should find out for sure if the clock really does start with the ROW, or if even at races the times are internal and the "false start" is there just to keep everyone relatively close together. Or that may be a "state secret", but since the software is available it should be relatively easy to test.

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » December 20th, 2005, 1:23 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Dec 20 2005, 05:55 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Hi One,<br /><br />I prefer to do my tests on the slides and the erg, as these are more reliable than conjecture.<br /><br />If objective results are not what you are looking for then I am not able to help you.<br /><br />Cheers.[right] </td></tr></table><br /><br /><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(onethirtyfive @ Dec 20 2005, 01:13 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>I am John that is why I need your help, I am looking for 'objective' results. Looking back thru the forum the position you are taking now is the same one you took BEFORE you had slides and BEFORE you conducted your own tests[right] </td></tr></table><br />Yes, my own tests reaffirmed the results I had seen from others, as they posted them on the forum.<br /><br />However, when I first rowed on the slides, the same day as my first 10:00 test, I felt the slides were more sluggish and were slower than the erg. It felt harder to get going on them, even rowing at a slow 2:24 pace. I was quite sure the repetitions were going to be slower than the erg. But then when I did them they were faster. Then I did the same on the erg the next day. Usually I would do them faster the 2nd day but they were 1.5 to 2 seconds per 500 meters slower on the erg than the slides for the 10 minutes of rowing.<br /><br />As stated before, I am planning to do longer distance sessions on them now and compare these sessions with the erg. I will post the results on the forum at that time. So you will need to wait for the longer results. However, 10 minutes is longer than it takes for a 2k, so the tests I have already completed are quite applicable. Also, remember that I am just 143 pounds. A 250 pound rower would likely get about 3 times the difference compared to the results that I have gotten so far.

[old] Dickie · Post by **[old] Dickie** » December 20th, 2005, 4:06 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Dec 20 2005, 12:43 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Dickie @ Dec 20 2005, 07:57 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Dec 19 2005, 04:19 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Godfried @ Dec 19 2005, 12:12 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>And what do we read at the top of that page?<br /><br />. . .<br /><br />*Please note that all 2000 meter record-breaking times must be rowed at a Concept2 sanctioned indoor rowing event with witnesses present. In addition all 2000 meter record-breaking times must be rowed on Concept2 Indoor Rowers without Slides.<br /><br />. . . <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />I see no reason that the French team trials could not be "sanctioned by C2", is there a question whether slides were used? Is anyone seriously contesting the fact that she accomplished the performance? Or is this another case of suggesting that a coach is skewing the numbers for some reason or another? <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />I see no team here, the article says 1 rower and 1 coach were present, this is clearly not an event. While I do believe Ms. Balmary did achieve a world record performance and I applaud the effort, this was not an event according to the rules.<br /><br />If you are now going to change the rules or start making exceptions, then Dwayne Adams effort must also be included for his effort had the same verification and was an event to the extent that Ms Balmary's performance was an event.<br /><br />I was willing to go along with Concept2's decision vis-a-vis Dwayne because in most other sports you have to be in a sanctioned competition to achieve world records. Even national trials, when they are competitions, count for world records, but in this case, this was not a competition, it was a single rower with a coach not a competition.<br /><br />In my opinion Concept2's credibility and integrity are on the line with this one. Either abide by your own rules and restore the old record or change the rules and award Dwayne Adams the record he deserves. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />"Balmary set the new world record during the first of two <b>French national team tests </b>for the season at the national training centre in Toulouse, France with just her coach Michel Colard watching quietly at her side."<br /><br />I do see the <i>team</i>, and team tests were certainly an <i>event</i> when I was taking part in them.<br /><br />I'm certainly not the one who makes the rules, and at the same time have no problem with Dwayne's performance, also note that Joan Van Blom's final USIRT trial broke her own WR but is not included in the official list at this time.<br /><br />Would a video recorded test be credible? Yet it could still not qualify as an official WR under the rules. Do you have a similar problem with that?<br /><br />Ralph makes a very good point that I hadn't thought of, and with a 0.2 margin, the start sequence could well be significant. Perhaps we should find out for sure if the clock really does start with the ROW, or if even at races the times are internal and the "false start" is there just to keep everyone relatively close together. Or that may be a "state secret", but since the software is available it should be relatively easy to test. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />I have no problem with Ms. Balmary's world record, I have a problem with Concept2's handling of these records. I still maintain one rower and one witness at a venue is not an event and thus i really don't have a problem that Dwayne's effort is not listed, but if, in their infinite wisdom, Concept2 decides that one rower and one witness is an event, then Dwayne's row was an event also. And now it seems is Joan van Bloms USIRT Trial, certainly this trial is as much an event as the French national Trial.<br /><br />What say you Concept2, are you records to be respected or not? If they are, then you have to apply your own rules, whatever you decide them to be, consistently. Either restore one of the records or record 2 more new ones.

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » December 20th, 2005, 4:34 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(arakawa @ Dec 20 2005, 08:24 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Without applying judgment to the relative validity of Dwayne Adams's time and Sophie Balmary's time, <a href='http://concept2.ipbhost.com/index.php?s ... =490&st=40' target='_blank'>Dwayne's letter from C2 regarding his record time</a> said (italics added): </td></tr></table><br /><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>All 2K World Records must be done at a sanctioned race such as CRASH-B, any of the 20 Satellite regattas or any of the National Championship regattas held in countries around the world. <i>We also accept times from any country's National Team selection trials</i>.[right] </td></tr></table><br /><br />Yeah well Dwayne's time was also a selection trial to the national team.<br />

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » December 20th, 2005, 4:37 pm

Also, I believe Dwayne had three witnesses for his performance, including a USIRT official.

[old] Jim Barry · Post by **[old] Jim Barry** » December 20th, 2005, 4:43 pm

John, I do not think Dwayne's "faster than the WR" row was for USIRT selection.

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » December 20th, 2005, 4:55 pm

Jim,<br /><br />Are you saying Dwayne's performance didn't qualify for selection, even though obscure and/or non existent time trials did?<br /><br />That is quite interesting to know.

[old] PaulS · Post by **[old] PaulS** » December 20th, 2005, 4:58 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Dickie @ Dec 20 2005, 12:06 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>I have no problem with Ms. Balmary's world record, I have a problem with Concept2's handling of these records. I still maintain one rower and one witness at a venue is not an event and thus i really don't have a problem that Dwayne's effort is not listed, but if, in their infinite wisdom, Concept2 decides that one rower and one witness is an event, then Dwayne's row was an event also. And now it seems is Joan van Bloms USIRT Trial, certainly this trial is as much an event as the French national Trial.<br /> <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Even though the web version seems to imply that it was a test done in a small room with two people present, I would be very surprised if that was the reality of the situation. A coach can be watching quietly in a large gathering quite easily.<br /><br />The specification in the Letter to Dwayne was that "National Team Trials" are a valid venue for WR's, and while his may or may not have been a USIRT trial, as well as Joan's, these are NOT "National Team Trials" as the USIRT is NOT a "National Team", it is a Team of people put together by C2, and no more a Nation sponsored entity than US Bank, US Plumbing, US Lock & Key, etc....<br /><br />I would suspect that if Dwayne participated in the United States Rowing Team trials, the performance would be valid for WR consideration.<br /><br />What is "Indoor Rowing" anyway? Seems it mostly amounts to yanking a chain, which I enjoy as much as the next guy (or gal).

[old] Jim Barry · Post by **[old] Jim Barry** » December 20th, 2005, 6:18 pm

John,<br /><br />Actually, between the lines of what I wrote was an unabridged and unauthorized biography of Sir Francis Bacon. Close though.

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