Strength Vs. Endurance?

[[old] aquaman]

In response to Mark's comments about other sports, i can add a little about weight training philosophy in swimming (though, of course in a sport with such a myriad of competitors and coaches there are countless different ideas for what approach is the best)<br /><br />In the experiences i have on several different swim teams, including some with Olympic Trail level athletes, weight training was included as a supplement to, and not substitute for, water practices, and only during the beginning and early middle of a season, or off season. <br />The sprinters (racing distances of 50-100 yds/m or 20-60 sec) did heavier lifting, 3 sets of 6-8 reps for example, middle distancers (racing distances of 200-400 yds/m or ~1.5 to 4 min) did moderate to heavy lifting, perhaps 3 sets of 8-12 reps, and the distancers (racing distances of 500 yd-1 mile or 4.5 min to 20 min) did more reps, more sets, and less weight, for instance 4 sets of 15 reps.<br />In our program the non-specialists would typically do something like 3 sets of 12-15 reps, and everyone, even the sprinters, were encouraged to include some sessions of 2 or 3 sets of 20+ reps and light weight, which i think were included to make sure we were not "shortening" our muscles<br /><br />The lifts were of course sport-specific, with more shoulders and arms than would be necessary in rowing and perhaps less leg/back exercises<br /><br />Since a 2k would fall in the "distance" category in swimming, a former swimmer might be inclined to weight train similarly to the distance swimmer program.. however, it has been my experience that the middle-of-the-road lifting style is effective in bringing down erg scores even for longer pieces.<br />This may have something to do with erging having alternating exertion and rest movements rather than continual exertion as in swimming, or perhaps the fact that you are supported by a seat and performing a more weightlift-like motion than simply propelling yourself through the water, or it could be something else i havent even considered <br /><br />

[[old] hjs]

<!--QuoteBegin-PaulS+Dec 9 2005, 07:42 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Dec 9 2005, 07:42 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-hjs+Dec 9 2005, 10:13 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(hjs @ Dec 9 2005, 10:13 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><br />yes I will be there. <br /><br /> About the benchpress. I think we are talking about a different exercise.  Try google  <br /><br />are you competing too tomorrow? And if you do in witch cat. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Oh, we are confusing "Bench Press" and "Bench Pull", nearly exact opposites.<br /><br />I agree that Bench Press will not hurt, and in fact should be done (or Push-ups, press-ups) to balance the chest from all of the rowing.<br /><br />I won't be there, as I am in the USA, but WD is a friend, and I thought you might know him as I had heard about you, and confirmed that you were his friend when talking with him today. He will be surprised that you and I have talked here. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br /><br />aha yes I have heard of you. indeed nice to talk. I just spoke to wiecher and he feels good. he is aiming for 6.28. Must be possible.<br /> <br />And yes we were talking about different exercises.

[[old] Carl Henrik]

<!--QuoteBegin-remador+Dec 9 2005, 04:48 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(remador @ Dec 9 2005, 04:48 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Hi, there!<br /><br />I've been working, in the last months, only to be fit enough to START competing in a suitable way.<br /><br />I stopped rowing for about 12 years and, now, I've been training for about a year and a half.<br /><br />I've been working hard also on weights, and I think am pretty strong, by now and for my age and weight. I can pull a 100kg barbell bent over row, or squat 200kg. So, I think it's time to improve the endurance side of my program (allready with a good volume). Mainly, I'll be erging and, sometimes, running. So, my question for debate is this: should I leave the heavy weights and focus only in strength-endurance? Is there any way of keeping my rowing strength high doing less, or even no weights at all? Will I be throwing away my strength gains? I think I am getting back to basic questions, here, but it's time to choose the best strategy to get my times lower - for 17-18 months, I've been just re-building the foundantions that my 12 years stop broke down.<br /><br />AM <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Excellent barbell row, Remador! <br /><br />1RM strength is not a good indicator of endurance performances like the 2k but you should still gather confidence from your 1RM that you have sufficient strength and anaerobic power. <br /><br />Have you tried the 300m yet? Or am I just too fast for you? <br /><br />I think you could move into the 6-12 reps range for strength training with the muscles used in rowing. Let rowing do the specific work and weights do general strength work. That's my opinion if you just want general fitness. <br /><br />My basic strength scheme now is bench press, front squats, deadlift and dumbell row or chin ups. I like it alot and it targets all you need IMO.

[[old] Byron Drachman]

<!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Erg and do some Push-ups to keep the chest from caving in, keep technique sound and you will be on a good track to progress. </td></tr></table> <br /><br />Hi Paul,<br /><br />Have you done Xeno's upper body workout on the C2? I'm having a great time with that DVD, although I don't quite look like a body builder yet. <br /><br />I'm not sure if the triceps exercise is equivalent to doing pushups, but it's great fun.<br /><br />Byron<br />

[[old] ljwagner]

If you decide to use weights, start with easier weights. You want to incorporate them to your workout, not discover at what point you can tear something.<br /><br />Warmup, good technique, light weights at first, no strain. As it stays easy, go up in weight. Don't ever go for the "one last rep, you can do it" line. If the one before was a strain, the next one may be the one that causes an injury. A neighbor and a guy at work each blew out a shoulder doing that. You're trying to conscientiuosly build strength, so "heavy" is always something doable when warm-ed up. Using 5% increments (very safe) avery two weeks or so, doubling strength in a year is manageable. <br /><br />Keep it fun. Throw small children (family) in the air and catch them.<br /><br />

[[old] John Rupp]

<!--QuoteBegin-ljwagner+Dec 10 2005, 01:03 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(ljwagner @ Dec 10 2005, 01:03 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Throw small children (family) in the air and catch them.[right] </td></tr></table><br /><br />While walking between alligators?<br />

[[old] ljwagner]

My two girls enjoyed the sense of flying immensely. Threw them overhead until they were 6 years old. Flat surfaces only. Indoors only with vaulted ceiling. The little one is only 55 pounds, so she still gets launched in the pool.

[[old] remador]

<!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Remador,<br /><br />On your 100 kg bent row and 200 kg squat, is that a 1 rep maximum, or can you do a set of any kind ? If it is a 1 rep max, it is a poor indicator of what you can muster for a 200+ stroke row.<br /><br />Erging at 18-20 spm, you have about a 2 sec rest prior to the next drive.<br /><br />Moving iron does give some indication of potential erg power, but only when doing 8-10 sets of 10-12 reps. All reps good. It will be well below your max, but rowing 5 minute plus is not about max pull on 1 stroke either. </td></tr></table><br /><br />Yes, I know that, but I also know that increasing you 1RM can increase your muscular endurance, and the other way around. What I am thinking, at the moment, is that, to get faster, I will need more aerobic work, while keeping my strength, and I suppose that rowing is the one best way to achieve this. OTOH, weights are getting too heavy (strength is increasing very, very much), and it gets pretty much easier to get injured when you have 200kg in your back. One of these days, I was deadlifting 162 kg and I left the barbell slip from my right hand, at the "catch"; it was 2 weeks ago, and my back still hurts...<br /><br />About the 1RM max: in fact, I think I could lift much more: I made 8x185 kg squats last week, so, maybe I can manage to lift about 230-240 kg, don't know well. The barbell row is really 1RM, with proper technique.<br /><br /><!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Excellent barbell row, Remador! <br /><br />1RM strength is not a good indicator of endurance performances like the 2k but you should still gather confidence from your 1RM that you have sufficient strength and anaerobic power. <br /><br />Have you tried the 300m yet? Or am I just too fast for you?   </td></tr></table><br /><br />Carl,<br /><br />Thanks!<br />I haven't tried the 300 m yet, but I think you really will be too fast for me, nevertheless. In fact, my training has consisted in heavy aerobic work and slow movements with weights (big resistance). So, I don't think I can do such an enormous anaerobic effort as your numbers suggest. OTOH, there is another issue, here: at 32 years old, your fastness and speed is getting lower quite fast; I can beat any of my club's juniors in a long row, but the thing gets much more difficult, e.g. in 1' rows...<br />Anyway, I'll try it, someday! <br /><br />AM

[[old] remador]

Speaking of strength, take a look at this abstract from Dr. Secher; I think it has some interesting implications:<br /><br /><b>Isometric rowing strength of experienced and inexperienced oarsmen.</b><br /><br />Secher NH.<br /><br />The significance of isometric muscle strength for rowing performance was studied. The questions investigated were: A) Is the isometric rowing strength (IRS) of oarsmen which is two to three times the dynamic force applied on the oar at maximal power rowing, a ratio which is equivalent to the maximal efficiency of Hill's force/velocity relationship? b ) Is IRS higher among successful oarsmen that among those less so? C) Is isometric strength of individual muscle groups correlated to IRS? From measurments on 40 oarsmen the results showed: a) IRS among the most successful oarsmen was 2.6 times the dynamic force indicated in literature; b ) IRS was 21 kp higher in the 7 international competitive oarsmen than in 22 national oarsmen, and 42 kp higher than IRS of 11 club oarsmen; and c) of eight other strength determinations only hand grip strength was correlated to IRS. It is suggested that IRS, but not isometric strength of individual muscle groups limits rowing performance.<br /><br /><br />AM

[[old] Carl Henrik]

Interesting extract, Remador, thanks!<br /><br />Today: 15 reps of 110kg deadlift without needing to take a new grip <br />(when doing the 20x120 I regripped after 9 and then +3 +3 +2 +2 + 1, so progress I believe)

[[old] remador]

Awesome workout, Carl!<br /><br />There's plenty of strength in your hands, I can see...<br /><br />AM

[[old] jfo]

<!--QuoteBegin-hjs+Dec 9 2005, 07:41 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(hjs @ Dec 9 2005, 07:41 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><br />my first time on a erg was a 2 k I scored 6.38.9 . Doing strenghttraining like most people....................[right] <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br /><br /> AAAaaarrhhg<br /><br />Hold on! 6.38.9 on your first 2k erg ????<br />I am training 6 times a week hoping to reach my goal of 7.00 soon!?<br />What did you do before you started erging?<br />Jeez I have to pull myself together

[[old] hjs]

<!--QuoteBegin-jfo+Dec 20 2005, 01:50 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(jfo @ Dec 20 2005, 01:50 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-hjs+Dec 9 2005, 07:41 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(hjs @ Dec 9 2005, 07:41 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><br />my first time on a erg was a 2 k I scored 6.38.9 . Doing strenghttraining like most people....................[right] <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br /><br /> AAAaaarrhhg<br /><br />Hold on! 6.38.9 on your first 2k erg ????<br />I am training 6 times a week hoping to reach my goal of 7.00 soon!?<br />What did you do before you started erging?<br />Jeez I have to pull myself together <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />It's really true. I was 31 at that time. During my twenties I did track and field, decatlon and later on mostly shotput due to an Knee inguree. I stopped track and field at 29. I keped on doing fitness and strengttraining mostly but did now and than some cycling and stepping. So as a hole I wasn't really unfit.

[[old] ljwagner]

Hmm. Time to take up rowing on the water. Pass those power boats in the marina.