8 X 500m Strategy

[[old] hjs]

training and sharpening are two different matters. Prior to a race the main thing is being sharp and fresh. Most people don,t react well on to must rest. You can use the 500 m training to sharpen your form. But is also wise to build up your energy. So don,t do them to hard en rest well enough. Use the speed to sharpen yourself but stop before you get tired. Skip the very long rows also. If your goal is a sharp 2 k doing half m really won't help you <br />

[[old] H_2O]

<!--QuoteBegin-Xeno+Nov 30 2005, 02:15 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Xeno @ Nov 30 2005, 02:15 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The last time I have heard of X times 500 meters was in the 80ies.<br /><br /><br />The most we would do was for example 3X500 with plenty of rest between.  Two days later 1000m and a 500m, again with plenty of rest in between.  Then three or four days of steady state to maintain the aerobic capacity.  Another workout would be 2X 1000m.  <br /> <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />What pace were those at in relation to 2K pace?<br />Was this all the speedwork you were doing?<br /><br />

[[old] NavigationHazard]

<!--QuoteBegin-NavigationHazard+Nov 28 2005, 05:03 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(NavigationHazard @ Nov 28 2005, 05:03 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-PaulS+Nov 28 2005, 04:39 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Nov 28 2005, 04:39 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-R S T+Nov 28 2005, 01:22 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(R S T @ Nov 28 2005, 01:22 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->PaulS suggests lower rest intervals. Mike C suggests faster pace.<br /><br />Is there a correct answer (assuming the goal is for a faster 2k time)? Or are they both right? Does it depend on the individual's lactate tolerance?<br /><br />Curious and confused.<br /><br />Richard <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Well, this is why I couldn't actually vote in this poll. And the answer may well be more complicated than the simple choices given. I think it's possible that we might be able to agree that the rest period should be fixed and the pace pushed faster. The exact amount of rest will eventually set the lower limit of the interval pace. i.e. the more rest you take, the more intense each interval can be.<br /><br />Stephen Seiler reported on an experiment where 2k pace could be accomplished for 30 minutes as long as it was done in 30 second intervals alternated with 30 second rest periods. Now of course it won't work for 1 minute intervals alternated with 1 minute rest periods. The situations appear to be more similar than they are.<br />Mike could probably explain exactly why that is, far better than I. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />It gets even more complicated if you start doing things like negative-splitting the intervals, i.e. increasing the pace incrementally either keeping spm constant or else increasing spm. And if you're into heart-rate training, which not everyone is, there's something to be said for using bpm as a proxy for lactate levels and letting it dictate the amount of rest. <br /><br />I personally think that there are many ways to a fast 2k, and a number of plausible ways to do 8 x 500 towards that goal. Moreover, I think that the utility of the workout -- and of any workout -- is best judged not in isolation but as part of a balanced, well-grounded training plan. <br /><br />Paul, I can believe that 2k might be doable for 30' as 30" on/ 30" off. I did a negative-splitted 15' of this the other day averaging 2k pace (1:35.5) and kept my HR well under threshold. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />By way of revisiting the 30" on/ 30" off interval workout, I just did a negative-splitted 40 of the suckers/ 20 minutes averaging somewhere around 1:33.5 pace r34. I can't say for sure what the average was since I recorded the workout on ErgMonitor on my laptop -- and I got a Blue Screen Of Death/ hardware failure while in the middle of trying to transcribe the results for posting here. <br /><br />I only managed to copy the data for the first 14, which were comparatively slow and erratic because it took me a while to get used to timing the start (set to begin automatically). Virtually all of the ones from #20-#40 were sub-1:34, most of them sub-1:33. The last two I opened up the power. They were something like 1:28 and 1:27ish respectively. Here are the first 14:<br /><br />01] 151.9 m 1:38.73 pace r34.00 10.696 spi D/R 1:1.65 DL 123.4 cm DF 134.8<br />02] 155.9 m 1:36.23 pace r35.96 10.885 spi D/R 1:1.77 DL 124.6 cm DF 134.2<br />03] 155.7 m 1:36.35 pace r34.46 11.823 spi D/R 1:1.65 DL 132.5 cm DF 134.9<br />04] 155.9 m 1:36.23 pace r34.77 12.081 spi D/R 1:1.74 DL 131.4 cm DF 134.0<br />05] 156.5 m 1:35.83 pace r34.34 11.934 spi D/R 1:1.67 DL 132.1 cm DF 135.9<br />06] 157.8 m 1:35.07 pace r34.12 12.066 spi D/R 1:1.65 DL 133.2 cm DF 136.0<br />07] 158.4 m 1:34.71 pace r34.31 12.338 spi D/R 1:1.74 DL 131.6 cm DF 137.3<br />08] 158.0 m 1:34.93 pace r34.36 12.293 spi D/R 1:1.76 DL 129.5 cm DF 136.6<br />09] 157.5 m 1:35.26 pace r34.71 12.414 spi D/R 1:1.84 DL 126.7 cm DF 136.9<br />10] 161.1 m 1:33.12 pace r33.89 13.201 spi D/R 1:1.86 DL 133.5 cm DF 135.2<br /><br />11] 159.0 m 1:34.36 pace r35.50 11.252 spi D/R 1:1.83 DL 125.4 cm DF 136.0<br />12] 159.4 m 1:34.09 pace r34.71 12.878 spi D/R 1:1.80 DL 130.7 cm DF 136.2<br />13] 161.2 m 1:33.07 pace r34.41 13.081 spi D/R 1:1.72 DL 134.0 cm DF 138.2<br />14] 160.6 m 1:33.42 pace r34.90 13.302 spi D/R 1:1.77 D.... <br /><br />Anyone in desperate need of the data for the other 26 of them will have to wait until the computer comes back from CompUsa. Luckily I purchased the 2-year full-featured service contract....<br /><br />If I did the workout again, purposefully, I'm confident I could average well under 1:33 for 40 intervals/ 20 mins and under 1:34 for 60 intervals/ 30 mins. Based on my US IRT trial time of 6:19.7 that's around 2k-2 to -2.5 pace @ 20', 2k-1 to -1.5 pace @ 30'. And if I had a mind to cheat the results, I could probably knock off some more time by paddling the odd stroke or four during the rests so as to let the flywheel spinning prior to the start. What I did today was with a dead handle-down stop during the rest intervals. <br /><br />Conclusion: either one can actually maintain better than 2k pace for 20-30 mins in this manner, or I'm capable of a rather faster 2k than I've been letting on, or both <br />

[[old] Stretch]

Whoa. I know it's all in the interests of erg science, NH, but personally I'd rather dive headlong into a pool of my own vomit. I'd certainly have one handy if I tried!

[[old] John Rupp]

Nav,<br /><br />How did you time the automatic starts, so you started on time but not late?<br /><br />It is interesting that your drive length varied between 48.5 to 52.5 inches.

[[old] John Rupp]

<!--QuoteBegin-NavigationHazard+Dec 7 2005, 05:41 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(NavigationHazard @ Dec 7 2005, 05:41 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->one can actually maintain better than 2k pace for 20-30 mins in this manner[right] </td></tr></table><br /><br />Definitely.

[[old] NavigationHazard]

You set the first interval to begin on the drive, then everything else to begin automatically after the previous 30" interval has elapsed. ErgMonitor will begin timing the 30" work intervals on cue, whether or not you're ready to begin. It took me a bit to get used to coming up the slide to the catch so that I started the initial drives pretty close to 0 rather than some tenths of a second into things.<br /><br />By 'timing the start' I meant adjusting my own internal rhythm while watching the countdown clock, so as to start driving at precisely the same time that ErgMonitor began recording the work interval. <br /><br />One of the major factors affecting average drive length on this type of session is whether you finish the interval on a full stroke and handle down, or whether you pull through and end part way through a drive. If your last, partial stroke is, say, 20 cm it shoots your average drive length as computed from the other 16 or 17 strokes to h***, and also may artificially distort your overall stroke rating.<br /><br />

[[old] John Rupp]

<!--QuoteBegin-NavigationHazard+Dec 7 2005, 06:36 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(NavigationHazard @ Dec 7 2005, 06:36 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It took me a bit to get used to coming up the slide to the catch so that I started the initial drives pretty close to 0 rather than some tenths of a second into things. </td></tr></table><br /><br />What happens if you accidently start a tenth too early?<br /><br /><!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If your last, partial stroke is, say, 20 cm it shoots your average drive length for the other 16 or 17 strokes to h***, and also may artificially distort your stroke rating.[right] </td></tr></table><br /><br />Yikes.<br />

[[old] NavigationHazard]

If you start early you kill yourself because ErgMonitor will start recording work data on the first drive after the clock says it's time to start the interval. That means you have to complete your stroke and start another one for the program to begin counting your meters. Your first pull will end up looking like 2:30 pace or some such. This is a problem in a 17-stroke piece. <br /><br />The PM3 does the same thing. It's not possible to jump the start.

[[old] John Rupp]

They should have it start automatically by the movement of the rower, as is done with skiing and other sports.<br /><br />This is how it is done with the pm2.

[[old] NavigationHazard]

You can configure ErgMonitor to start any segment of a workout either immediately or else on the motion of the drive. It's entirely up to you when you're setting things up.<br /><br />The disciplinary point of having intervals start according to a fixed time schedule is that you can't 'cheat' by milking extra seconds of rest. I got 30 seconds of rest every time, not 30 seconds plus wait! let me adjust my footstraps and oh! I need to towel off the handle after I finish leaning back to stretch my hip flexors and the vclume control on my stereo needs adjustment; besides, I hate Green Day and why did I pick <i>that</i> radio station let me change it.... <br /><br />Futz around in this way and rest intervals have a habit of expanding stealthily. Let 30" of rest become 33" -- which isn't hard to do, even if you're sincere about trying to start on time -- and you've just increased the period between your work intervals by 10%. This sort of fluctuation is bound to affect performance, perhaps fairly significantly. This may not matter a whit to you and your training plan. But depending on what you're trying to achieve, it may.<br /><br />IMO there's nothing whatsoever wrong with intermittent-rest intervals (cf. fartlek). However I feel they tend to provide a different sort of workout than fixed-rest intervals. <br /><br />Moreover, if you're trying to prove conclusively that you can do X intervals with Y rest, you need to show that you're actually doing Y rest rather than Y + 10 seconds, Y + 10 minutes, Y + 10 hours, or whatever. <br /><br />

[[old] gooseflight]

<!--QuoteBegin-H_2O+Nov 30 2005, 12:16 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(H_2O @ Nov 30 2005, 12:16 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Xeno+Nov 30 2005, 02:15 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Xeno @ Nov 30 2005, 02:15 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The last time I have heard of X times 500 meters was in the 80ies.<br /><br /><br />The most we would do was for example 3X500 with plenty of rest between.  Two days later 1000m and a 500m, again with plenty of rest in between.  Then three or four days of steady state to maintain the aerobic capacity.  Another workout would be 2X 1000m.  <br /> <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />What pace were those at in relation to 2K pace?<br />Was this all the speedwork you were doing? <br /> </td></tr></table><br />Thought I'd bump this as I'm interested in the answer.

[[old] John Rupp]

<!--QuoteBegin-NavigationHazard+Dec 8 2005, 02:09 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(NavigationHazard @ Dec 8 2005, 02:09 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The disciplinary point of having intervals start according to a fixed time schedule is that you can't 'cheat' by milking extra seconds of rest.  [right] </td></tr></table><br /><br />Having accurate rest intervals AND repetitions is easy to accomplish with the pm2.<br /><br />For the session of 30s with 30s rests, just set the rest interval for 22s (or whatever) and then start every 60s by the clock.<br /><br />The rest intervals are exact, and EVERY REPETITION IS ACCURATE.<br /><br />You can't do this on the pm3. <br /><br />Apparently you can with ergmonitor, which is good.<br /><br /><br />

[[old] PaulS]

<!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+Dec 8 2005, 01:23 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Dec 8 2005, 01:23 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-NavigationHazard+Dec 8 2005, 02:09 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(NavigationHazard @ Dec 8 2005, 02:09 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The disciplinary point of having intervals start according to a fixed time schedule is that you can't 'cheat' by milking extra seconds of rest.  [right] </td></tr></table><br /><br />Having accurate rest intervals AND repetitions is easy to accomplish with the pm2.<br /><br />For the session of 30s with 30s rests, just set the rest interval for 22s (or whatever) and then start every 60s by the clock.<br /><br />The rest intervals are exact, and EVERY REPETITION IS ACCURATE.<br /><br />You can't do this on the pm3. <br /><br />Apparently you can with ergmonitor, which is good. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Why do you need to involve a clock when you can set the PM2 for 30sec work and 30sec rest and just follow the countdowns? The PM3 can do the same thing, it just won't wait for you to pull a stroke to start ticking off your time for the work intervals. (Presumably you would be paddling for the 30 sec rest period since the flywheel takes almost 2 minutes to come to rest.) ErgMonitor can do it either way, which I agree is Good. <br /><br />ErgMonitor could even be set up to have a "rest" period as the first thing paddled, so that every "work" interval started from the paddle, though being that "precise" is more silly than necessary, however we aim to please even the most detail oriented.

[[old] ranger]

8 x 500m with 3:30 rest works fine for me, with the repeats done at 2K - 3/4, not 2K. I guess I am a traditionalist on this, despite my upbringing:<br /><br />"Cureton was known for his ability to make students think. He challenged them, stimulated their curiosity, and their desire to investigate, saying: "If you end up upsetting tradition, why that's fine"."<br /><br />Yep. That's Dad. He was a _total_ nutcase. One of a kind.<br /><br />Then again, Counsilman was pretty out there, too. If I remember correctly, he swam the English channel when he was in his late 70s, just for something to do!<br /><br />My father acted this way his entire life. Growing up in our household, you never knew what might happen next!<br /><br />ranger<br /><br />P.S. I also like the Zatopek format (40 x 500m, paddle 500m inbetween) for doing 500s. I do Zatopek 500s at about 2K + 2.<br /><br />ranger