Does (why) form during recovery matter?

[arown]

Only been rowing for about 3 months. Can someone explain to me whether/why it matters that during recovery, you put your arms away first, then swing the core, and then bend knees, i.e., the exact opposite of the drive? The recovery phase directs zero force towards the flywheel, so why is it a big deal if I say swing or bend my legs earlier or do everything bit more together? Given that everything is relaxed except for a straight back, I can’t see an obvious injury avoidance benefit either.

[max_ratcliffe]

Only been rowing for about 3 months. Can someone explain to me whether/why it matters that during recovery, you put your arms away first, then swing the core, and then bend knees, i.e., the exact opposite of the drive? The recovery phase directs zero force towards the flywheel, so why is it a big deal if I say swing or bend my legs earlier or do everything bit more together? Given that everything is relaxed except for a straight back, I can’t see an obvious injury avoidance benefit either.

To some extent, it doesn't matter imo. Of course, if you're erging as training for otw rowing, then you can't lift the handle over your knees as that would put the oar in the water and probably knock you out of the boat. Painfully.

I do find that focusing on rowing form helps me rock over at the hips and avoid lumbar flexion. Setting the back a bit earlier seems to help get into a strong catch.

It's a good idea to keep the recovery consistent, so it might as well be the traditional stroke as any, but in general I tend to agree with you.

[aussie nick]

Only been rowing for about 3 months. Can someone explain to me whether/why it matters that during recovery, you put your arms away first, then swing the core, and then bend knees, i.e., the exact opposite of the drive? The recovery phase directs zero force towards the flywheel, so why is it a big deal if I say swing or bend my legs earlier or do everything bit more together? Given that everything is relaxed except for a straight back, I can’t see an obvious injury avoidance benefit either.

I understand the question and agree with Max. I think where it does help is when you're rating really fast..like over 30 and maybe close to 40 s/m...the most efficient method of getting yourself back into the correct position at the catch is going to help your speed & power and limit any superfluous movement that might tire you out.

so getting your technique into the correct groove during your steady state rows...when you might have time to do it 'incorrectly'...helps grease the groove to perfect the technique for the time trials/races when you really don't have time to do it 'incorrectly'

[btlifter]

Only been rowing for about 3 months. Can someone explain to me whether/why it matters that during recovery, you put your arms away first, then swing the core, and then bend knees, i.e., the exact opposite of the drive? The recovery phase directs zero force towards the flywheel, so why is it a big deal if I say swing or bend my legs earlier or do everything bit more together? Given that everything is relaxed except for a straight back, I can’t see an obvious injury avoidance benefit either.

Interesting question. This is not something I've considered nor researched, so I'll look forward to continuing to read others' responses. Off the top of my head though, there are the 2 eeasons why I - personally - plan on aiming to continue to sequence my recovery "properly".

1. I think this is the fastest/most efficient way. Particularly at high ratings (when relatively more of the total work is recovering) the fastest route back to starting the drive is important. Arms, torso, then knees seems to accomplish this. In practice there is certainly tremendous overlap however.

2. I suspect that economy is improved by repeating the same movement in reverse. I don't know this to be true, just a suspicion.

[jamesg]

why it matters that during recovery, you put your arms away first, then swing the core, and then bend knees,

It matters because it lets us pull a stroke that is hard work, using the already strong legs, so gets us fit.

[max_ratcliffe]

why it matters that during recovery, you put your arms away first, then swing the core, and then bend knees,

It matters because it lets us pull a stroke that is hard work, using the already strong legs, so gets us fit.

Yeah, but why that sequence? Aside from otw concerns, why does it matter how we get to a strong catch position?

I always used to put my left pad on before my right. Did it make me bat any better? No. Just what I did.

[Dangerscouse]

That is an interesting question and I agree with Cam, as I suspect it's the most efficient form of movement, but in all reality it probably doesn't make much difference for erging. Rowing on the water, as described by Max, is totally different.

[jamesg]

Yeah, but why that sequence? Aside from otw concerns, why does it matter how we get to a strong catch position?

Probably the main reason is that getting our weight forward on the feet as soon as possible, lets us control posture during the approach to the catch. We get a second point of contact, with a feel of position and forces through the legs and feet. The seat alone cannot do this.

What we are exploiting is our unique nerve and muscle systems in feet and legs that control position, keep us erect and let us run and walk with just two legs.

[JaapvanE]

In the most extreme form, you would pull your legs in first, with your body tilted backwards and your arms close to your body. If it wasn't for the footstraps you probably fall over backward (it is a balancing act on the seat and you move the heaviest component inward). That kind of rotation is inefficient.

In less extreme cases, you encounter your own knees, which require an additional arm movement. Might not matter much, but it is waisted energy.

The arms are the fastest muscles, and it changes your balance on your seat, allowing you keep your balance while using the bigger core muscles to get back up again. Then you can finish with the slowest but strongest muscles: the legs.

[Nomath]

Ever heard of the counter movement jump (CMJ) ? It's a vertical jump in the air that you start by standing upright, a quick bend of the knees that lowers the center mass followed by springing upwards. These combined movements allow you to jump about 12% higher than by starting in a hooked position. The general explanation of the gain is that the quick extension of the leg muscles moving downward followed by a quick contraction, a so-called stretch-shortening cycle, gives an extra boost. It is still debated whether the leg muscles behave elastically when the stretch-shortening is done sufficiently fast.
The same stretch-shortening happens in the horizontal direction during rowing just before and after the catch. Knee bending should be done last in the recovery.

[jamesg]

Probably muscles do not contract instantaneously.

So starting stationary at bottom dead center, there will be a slight delay before maximum force and acceleration are delivered.

But if full force is reached on the way down, before bdc, full upwards acceleration starts sooner. This looks like a bounce but is in fact the same muscle force causing first deceleration and then acceleration with respect to the ground. The two are distinguishable only with reference to the ground or the leg itself.

Certainly we can do the same on the erg at the catch.

I think what differentiates these effects from stored elastic energy is the decision. A spring cannot decide when to act as a spring. A muscle acts as and when we decide it shall, consciously or not.

[KeithT]

Others have stated it but in general it's about efficiency. Especially, the knee part - if you have to go up and over your knees it's wasted energy. Now some other things aren't quite as big of a deal like allowing your hands to drop some. It doesn't have to be perfect just like a golf swing you can have a bad take away and flawed mechanics but if you get the club squared before impact it doesn't matter. The thing with rowing is any little loss of efficiency can add up to making you tired. I hear the same debate on pausing at the finish and/or pulling the handle high. Not huge issues but some loss of efficiency. So, really its about how much are you deviating from the "standard" and how much impact does it have.

[arown]

Folks, thanks for the responses. I found that there is a pretty straightforward physics argument for efficiency after all (detailed below). The applicability to water rowing certainly makes sense, as does the argument of moving hands past the knees before they bend too much but that still leaves many degrees of freedom unrestricted compared to the traditionally recommended sequential recovery.

@Nomath: that was very interesting to know, thanks, but it is not clear (at least to me) why bending knees just before the catch would be any less efficient if parts of the back or arms are also bending.

Physics dictates the following two for optimal efficiency, the case for the first of which is much stronger than the second, but the two together leave the sequential recovery as the only optimal choice.

1) All back swing and arm extension should be completed before knees start bending at all. Why? Moving any body part forward needs to be balanced by a reactionary force backwards against some external surface (for example, in outer space you can't change your center of gravity by moving your arms forward as your core or legs will automatically shift backward). With knees fully extended, this balancing reactionary force is your butt pushing against the seat and your forefoot tugging against the straps. With knees folded, the seat is effectively like a "free floating" object, so moving any part of your back or arm forward will apply a force on the seat pushing it backward even as you are overall trying to make it move forward. That's wasted energy in conflicting actions.

This however still doesn't explain why, say, arms and back can't move together or in the opposite sequence to that recommended, but there is a weaker physics and physiological argument for that too as follows.

2) It is more economical to fully extend arms before starting to swing the back forward.
(i) With arms fully extended, your core muscles used to swing your back forward are aided not only by the forefoot tugging against the foot straps but also very weakly by pulling yourself against the handle but doing so lightly enough so that your arms don't bend, thereby spreading the work across more muscles making it less fatiguing on each. With arms bent, the handle tug and arm extension actions cancel and don't provide net aid to the core movement.
(ii) Moving the hands away first instead of back and arms together is also physiologically very slightly less tiring because total work is being spread across a longer interval at lower peak intensity, which is similar to how running at a steady pace is easier compared to doing intervals at the same overall average pace (counting the rest/walk portions as well). There is also an argument at least for not keeping the biceps fully flexed as that is simply more strenuous (though this last argument doesn't quite make a case for full extension as opposed to maintaining some arm bend for longer).

PS: The physics of why the drive should be the way it is recommended is easier to find online, e.g., I found this article to be a pretty sound explanation for tips like why the back should start swinging backward only after the knee joint has extended past 90º: http://biorow.com/index.php?route=infor ... news_id=25

[alien878]

Good question. I never questioned it. Thinking about it, I suspect it makes it easier to have a smooth increase in momentum during the recovery. First the arms. Then tipping the torso forward. Finally moving the whole body forward with the legs.

For an experiment, I tried changing the order with loose straps (don’t try it strapless!). I wasn’t able to do it. I suspect the effort going into pulling on the straps could be better used elsewhere on long rows.

Sprints are probably a different story where one might want to sacrifice some efficiency for a faster stroke rate.

Allen

[ArmandoChavezUNC]

You guys/gals are really overthinking what is a very simple concept.

I challenge you to row above 30 spm with any other type of sequencing. If you don't get the hands and body over before breaking the knees, then you MUST lift the arms over your knees otherwise you'll slam into them. Then you have to lower the handle again before initiating the catch. This is a tremendous waste of energy, is not smooth, is disruptive, and will kill your speed at high rates.