Noob: importance of drive-to-recovery ratio

[Tsnor]

...It will hamper your training if you spend too much time fussing about SPI (in just the same way that fussing about HR hampers your training).

you had me there until the last bit.

[btlifter]

...It will hamper your training if you spend too much time fussing about SPI (in just the same way that fussing about HR hampers your training).

you had me there until the last bit.

I've been looking forward to the day I can disagree with you about something.

...that day is not today! Haha

[jamesg]

hamper your training if you spend too much time fussing

Please add electronics to the list.

[Dangerscouse]

...It will hamper your training if you spend too much time fussing about SPI (in just the same way that fussing about HR hampers your training).

you had me there until the last bit.

I've been looking forward to the day I can disagree with you about something.

...that day is not today! Haha

Hahaha, that's sounds familiar

[arown]

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The Work done per stroke will be 60*1.2*g/60 = 12 Watt minutes. At rating 18, Power 12*18 = over 200W.

Suggest you start there.
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I think this might be a bit ambitious. The OP is tall enough but at 143lb is very much a lightweight. 12 is an big stroke and "starting there" before the body is accustomed to it could lead to injury.

Hi Max or others, can you elaborate on avoiding injury risk? My stroke rate is around 16-17 now with this recently discovered power pushoff+slow recovery row that’s closer to a 1:2 ratio. My usual workout is 5K and sometimes 10K, and I row three times a week. I mostly just do long steady rows (but find myself occasionally switching to my default 1:1 ratio meeker pushoff+quicker recovery for a minute or two if my legs start tiring in between) plus a sprint finish for the last lap. My HR averages around 150 bpm that’s probably 75-80% of my max (and would correspond to an easy run or a moderately hard bike ride for me).

Not being young anymore and having dealt with running injuries, I’m injury risk averse, so any tips on avoiding rowing injuries are welcome. My goals are cross training (to running), lower body strength, and endurance in that order.

[Dangerscouse]

Hi Max or others, can you elaborate on avoiding injury risk? My stroke rate is around 16-17 now with this recently discovered power pushoff+slow recovery row that’s closer to a 1:2 ratio. My usual workout is 5K and sometimes 10K, and I row three times a week. I mostly just do long steady rows (but find myself occasionally switching to my default 1:1 ratio meeker pushoff+quicker recovery for a minute or two if my legs start tiring in between) plus a sprint finish for the last lap. My HR averages around 150 bpm that’s probably 75-80% of my max (and would correspond to an easy run or a moderately hard bike ride for me).

Not being young anymore and having dealt with running injuries, I’m injury risk averse, so any tips on avoiding rowing injuries are welcome. My goals are cross training (to running), lower body strength, and endurance in that order.

What Max is alluding to is that when you're still fairly new to rowing a strong stroke, whilst being ideal, can be a vulnerable position for your lower back.

A low stroke rate i.e. r18 or lower, is magnifying the issue especially if it's a strong stroke as you're loading pressure on your lower back as the flywheel is slowing down more the less strokes you take, so the sheer effort to move the flywheel increases stroke by stroke, especially as you get more tired.

I hardly ever row at less than r20 as I don't like the risk / reward ratio and I don't think there is anything to be gained other than it feeling harder, and consequently needing to lower the pace accordingly.

[max_ratcliffe]

I agree with what Stu said. My thoughts below, with the usual caveat that it shouldn't be construed as medical advice

The cliche analogy is that as a runner, your engine will be easily able to overpower your chassis. Your body won't be accustomed to taking the load through the back but you are fit enough to do lots of work. If anything you may be slightly more at risk of injury in the early days/weeks than a sedentary person who can only pull a few strokes before fatigue makes them stop.

So make sure that you temper James's good advice about a strong stroke with commonsense. Make sure that the drag isn't too high on your machine (that increases the force at the catch) and make sure your feet aren't too high (high feet make it harder to get into a good catch position as the lumbar spine might want to flex).

There is some debate about stroke rate. Good technique can help guard against injury and a lower rate should mean that you have more time to get your body into a strong position even though the force may be higher. I breathe in on the recovery, which seems a bit unnatural but it allows for a partial valsalver, so an increased intra abdominal pressure which can protect against back and rib injuries. We wouldn't deadlift without a good lungful of air so I try not to take the catch empty.

Some short breaks in a long steady piece are also aroused to help. So I usually break an hour into 3x20' 1'r for example. The minute break allows a quick drink and reset of the lower back. The hr does of course go down in that minute, but it can't have much effect on training response imo.

[mict450]

The cliche analogy is that as a runner, your engine will be easily able to overpower your chassis. Your body won't be accustomed to taking the load through the back but you are fit enough to do lots of work. If anything you may be slightly more at risk of injury in the early days/weeks than a sedentary person who can only pull a few strokes before fatigue makes them stop.

So make sure that you temper James's good advice about a strong stroke with commonsense. Make sure that the drag isn't too high on your machine (that increases the force at the catch) and make sure your feet aren't too high (high feet make it harder to get into a good catch position as the lumbar spine might want to flex).

There is some debate about stroke rate. Good technique can help guard against injury and a lower rate should mean that you have more time to get your body into a strong position even though the force may be higher. I breathe in on the recovery, which seems a bit unnatural but it allows for a partial valsalver, so an increased intra abdominal pressure which can protect against back and rib injuries. We wouldn't deadlift without a good lungful of air so I try not to take the catch empty.

Some short breaks in a long steady piece are also aroused to help. So I usually break an hour into 3x20' 1'r for example. The minute break allows a quick drink and reset of the lower back. The hr does of course go down in that minute, but it can't have much effect on training response imo.

Max, great points in this post! Something for all of us to keep in mind, no matter how much experience we have OTE/OTW.

[jamesg]

Hi Max or others, can you elaborate on avoiding injury risk? My stroke rate is around 16-17 now with this recently discovered power pushoff+slow recovery row that’s closer to a 1:2 ratio.

Rowing in particular and exercise in general is the best and maybe only way to cure/avoid a bad back, often caused by inactivity, cars and desks.

Make sure you row correctly, so the legs do the work. Important are sequences and posture. The C2 technique page shows all. https://www.concept2.com/indoor-rowers/ ... que-videos

How do you know your ratio is 2:1? This seems impossible at rate 16-17, unless you use very high drag. Do note that boats go fast; and the erg is supposed to mimic this. At rate 16 the ratio would be about 5:1.

[arown]

Hi folks, another related question: what fraction of my training should I do at the harder ~15SR/1:2 drive-to-recovery-time ratio compared to my easier ~24SR/1:1? My usual row is 5K, but I occasionally do a 10K like today, and rowing at 15’ish that long feels very tiring and mentally deflating coz it’s both more tiring and less fast (still getting used to accepting that), so on longer rows, after a few kilometers, I switch to something closer to a 1:1 ratio, e.g., my 10K row today averaged in between at 18SR that’s still closer to my 1:2 than my 1:1 ratio.

Does the weaker 1:1 drive not have any training benefit or does it have some worth allocating some (how much) fraction of my training to it? My goals lower body strength first, and secondarily endurance and aerobic engine improvement.

[Tsnor]

Hi folks, another related question: what fraction of my training should I do at the harder ...

Many theories on how to train. Most elite rowers are now using a combination of very long/very slow sessions mixed with two or three harder sessions a week. (They are also training 15 to 20 hours/week, likely you will not do that.) If all of your rows are hard, and you are doing many a week (and people propose that here on the forums and in the wider training community), likely you will get poor long term results. Suggest you listen to a view vids, form a training plan for long slow vs hard, and then make your choice on how to do the hard rows.

https://www.ted.com/talks/stephen_seile ... e_athletes

https://www.8020endurance.com/seilers-h ... ing-needs/

Google can find others. Also, training plans from running, cycling and other sports directly translate.

Example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9SvLGv2c1E

Aside: rowing stroke rate is like cycling bike cadence in the sense that research is inconclusive on optimal stroke/min other than in sprints the SPM (and pedal cadence) needs to be high, and that long pieces have a lower SPM than short pieces. There is research that strength training is beneficial, and that low cadence high effort rates do not give the same benefits as weight training (leg press, etc).

[dabatey]

If you follow a program such as C2 Interactive/original it will designate your stroke rate and the pace you should be going. Then you wouldn't need to be querying or adjusting, instead just following. The correct drive/recovery ratio would follow on from the designated stroke rate and pace.

[ukaserex]

Take comfort in that strength is quicker to build than aerobic fitness, so you're in a decent place to get better quicker

I apologize for my lack of knowledge, but it's always been my understanding that the opposite is true. Aerobic fitness would be developed faster than strength.

Can you elaborate on what you mean by this? Seems to me that strength improvements take months, aerobic capacity & endurance can be improved within weeks. Maybe I'm mistaken? Or, could it be one way with rowing, and the other way with other sports?

[jamesg]

Hi folks, another related question: what fraction of my training should I do at the harder ~15SR/1:2 drive-to-recovery-time ratio compared to my easier ~24SR/1:1?

If you're not training for racing, just make sure your stroke is effective, then use it. The effect of a stroke is to move a boat. Somewhere between 9 and 11 meters per stroke is normal at low rates, as shown by C2 PM.

A ratio 1.1 means you've not yet learnt to row. When erging at low ratings the ratio is around 3:1: the pull takes 0.7s and the recovery 2.1s; total 2.8 and 60/2.8 = 21.

Rowing at a keep fit level is no different from walking or any other exercise; just do it. HR increase and or sweat will result. As you get fitter you'll see it takes longer to get the H moving.

The aspects of a good stroke are length and handle force, since these two quantities, multiplied together, make up an engineering term called Work. The more work in each stroke, the fewer we need to pull.

[Dangerscouse]

I apologize for my lack of knowledge, but it's always been my understanding that the opposite is true. Aerobic fitness would be developed faster than strength.

Can you elaborate on what you mean by this? Seems to me that strength improvements take months, aerobic capacity & endurance can be improved within weeks. Maybe I'm mistaken? Or, could it be one way with rowing, and the other way with other sports?

No need to apologise. If you've got base fitness, sharpening it up isn't that bad, but if you're starting from very little the body will respond seemingly fairly quickly as you'll see improvements, but to a meaningful sense it takes a long time. It's possibly more or less comparable with newbie gains, and seeing how they drop off all too quickly is due to a lack of aerobic fitness.

Don't get me wrong strength takes time too, but as a crude example, if you compared someone who has to row at r20ish, and someone who rows at r28ish there will be a quicker response dropping down i.e. using strength, than building up the stroke rates.

Muscles don't play as significant a role in rowing as aerobic fitness does, so you don't need a really strong frame to succeed; just a really robust one will do.