How often should I attempt PB's?

[paddler]

I'm 49, brand new to the Erg, and am using it to cross train 2x/week. I'm interested in improving on three distances, the 500, 1000 and 2k. How often do you guys attempt max PB rows? I was thinking of doing one per month: I did a 1:29 500 this month, will try a 1k in March, 2k in April, repeat.

Appreciate the feedback, and also wondering if it's common to slip off the seat during high intensity, shorter efforts? It may be my form, but I want to see if you put anything on the seat to prevent slippage.

Thanks!

[ukaserex]

Being new to the rower, you should find improvements fairly easily in all three distances as you get accustomed to rowing, improving form as well as your overall level of fitness.

With the 500M - there's your form when rowing, and the rest is just your ability to "hang" on during the entire 80 to 1XX seconds, depending on how fit & strong you are.

Slipping off the seat is a sure sign of bad form - and don't feel badly, I've done this myself in a contest to row 1:00 for max distance. It was a big clue that I was "Pulling" more with my arms than I was pushing with my legs. If your issue was the same as mine, once corrected, you'll see a faster time. I think you should be encouraged. It's easy enough to practice good form, and even the best of us will slack off on form in a sprint. The key, though, is to maximize the push with the legs from the catch as you start your stroke. For sprints like the 1:00 and the 500M, most rowers will start with a couple of half strokes, or even a 1/4, 1/2 and then into a full stroke. Just depends on what you like. You'll want to practice these to see which works best for you.

Pretty sure there are some YouTube videos that break this down more clearly than my clumsy attempt.

The 1k strategy may vary, but for the most part, folks will plan out a certain pace for the first 500M, then just try to hold on for the next 500m. For those that row at a good clip, the last 500 isn't going to be more than 90 seconds, so they are just accustomed to the inability to breathe and suffer through it.

There are numerous 2k strategies, but the best is to know your abilities well enough to get to your "2k pace" as soon as you possibly can, and just stay at that pace until you've rowed 2k. The 2k time trial is something special, that's for sure. Until you know your 2k pace, it's going to be really tough to figure out what the best pace for you is. Some folks, even experienced rowers, will come out too fast and not be able to sustain the pace for the time trial. Some put the handle down, some just slow down. Over time, you'll determine which is best for you. Good luck!

[Tony Cook]

I'm 49, brand new to the Erg, and am using it to cross train 2x/week. I'm interested in improving on three distances, the 500, 1000 and 2k. How often do you guys attempt max PB rows? I was thinking of doing one per month: I did a 1:29 500 this month, will try a 1k in March, 2k in April, repeat.

Appreciate the feedback, and also wondering if it's common to slip off the seat during high intensity, shorter efforts? It may be my form, but I want to see if you put anything on the seat to prevent slippage.

Thanks!

Newbie gains usually mean you will see big improvements every few weeks initially. Then you plateau and the PBs can be months to attain, with some disappointing backward steps along the way.

If you are lifting then it will be technique that can improve. Also lift your feet up by one setting for a sprint, the 500m, makes you push more horizontally so less lift.

[MPx]

Welcome...you certainly have the right physique for some excellent future PBs. You sound like you are probably already fairly well trained and used to training? If so that will stand you in good stead, and a sub 1:30 500 is an excellent early milestone. However at just 2 ergs a week IMO your training is a bit too limited to make significant headway particularly at the 2k end. The further you get from a sub minute effort, the less you can rely on your strength and the more you need to build aerobic capacity. If you already have strength and aerobic capacity, then the only gains you can expect will come from improved form/stroke - but then gains there will be! Testing one of your distances once a month sounds fine to me. You could do more depending on what other training you're doing. One or two very hard sessions per week should be manageable in the sense of recovery. And these pieces you've chosen are very short so although they will hurt just as bad, recovery will be easier and quicker.

In terms of the tests, the 500 is slightly different to the others as its so short. I've had best results from a slighty increased drag factor, footplates one hole higher, rating very high, starting off at target pace - 2 and holding for 300 then slowly drifting up trying not to die too badly at the end. Its putting the feet slightly higher that helps stay on the seat when pushing so hard and rating so high as the force is more horizontal rather than lifting you out of the seat.

The 1k and particularly 2k will not reward that approach. Stick to your normal drag factor and foot position, and go closer to a flat pace. Rating will be higher than normal training but not bansai. Maybe high 30s for 1k and low 30s for 2k

[Carl Watts]

Once a month if you go all out.

Any more than that and it affects your training. Age 50 is not great your recovery is slower as well. Obviously some PB's are harder than others, the shorter stuff you can get a reasonable recovery from but that said even the 1 min PB this year stuffed me for days.

Big difference between even 95% and 100% effort.

[Tsnor]

Once a month if you go all out.

Any more than that and it affects your training. Age 50 is not great your recovery is slower as well. Obviously some PB's are harder than others, the shorter stuff you can get a reasonable recovery from but that said even the 1 min PB this year stuffed me for days.

Big difference between even 95% and 100% effort.

THIS ^^^^^^^^

Build a good training plan. Work the PB attempts into the plan. One all out effort a month is probably upper bound. If you are new you can set new PBs at a 95% effort level twice a week for a while, but once you are at the "only 100%+ efforts set PBs" level you do not want to be running that level often.

I'm 49, brand new to the Erg, and am using it to cross train 2x/week. I'm interested in improving on three distances, the 500, 1000 and 2k. How often do you guys attempt max PB rows? I was thinking of doing one per month: I did a 1:29 500 this month, will try a 1k in March, 2k in April, repeat.

1:29 500m <-- very nice. Have you seen the ranking database ? That's 75th to 90th percentile for age 40-49. Impressive. https://log.concept2.com/rankings/2022/ ... s=verified

REALLY STRONG and "brand new to the Erg" is a bad combo. Rowing is low impact, but you can hurt yourself, especially if back is in a bad position (think high weight squats with poor form). Plenty of good rowing technique videos on youtube - post if you want recommendations or look for "darkhorserowing" and "concept2 Australia". When people see splits like 1:29 for 500m they assume you know how to row pretty well - if you have any doubts post questions or a video of yourself rowing.

It's normal to slip on the seat starting out, you won't do it once your technique matches your muscles. Look into foot height on stretcher, keep handle height even and not too high, and think "push away from the flywheel" not "push down on the foot stretchers". You slip on the seat because you are using your leg drive (and maybe incorrectly your arms) to lift your butt off the seat. It gets worse with higher effort, shorter pieces. There are non-slip pads that help short term. Once your technique matures you don't need them.

Your plan of one PB attempt per month (500 then 1K then 2K) should work well as long as you are not doing PB attempts in your other sports at the same time. If you are going all out in other sports too you might want to drop the frequency to one across all your sports.

[Dangerscouse]

Everyone else has covered the main question, but I reiterate Tsnor's comment about possible injury, especially as you're focusing on some of the shorter distances and only doing it twice a week.

Bad technique can easily lead to lower back injuries so make sure you're predominantly pushing not pulling. You sound like you're already strong, so this can be a double edged sword. It's good because you are already fast, but bad because your ego will dominate your decisions.

[jamesg]

How often do you guys attempt max PB rows?

Whenever in a race, unless we want to go slow. If you have a coach, or a full schedule like the Interactive 2k plans, whenever he she or it says so.

Otherwise, it depends what you need to know; which is usually to check progress and determine training bands.

For example in Wolverine L4s, a 2k test pace is used to define paces at rates 18-20-22-24 etc in pyramids of various types. The same idea can be applied using test Watts and rates. In the Interactives, an initial test 2k defined training bands as Watts, HR or Rating, with another at half way to update.

The 500 is not a race distance, but can be used to plan a 2k race, two days before, if endurance is adequate for that distance. I found this very effective.

I've also used the 500 in place of an initial 2k test, taking half 500 test Watts low rate as initial training level. Luckily for me, my 500 is slow, about 230W, so I train at 115-130W rate 20. Using this idea, your 1:29 being almost 500W, your training will be centered on 250 Watt at low rates in order to develop stroke technique and discipline.

Non-race distances, such as 1k and 5k usually turn out as pbs anyway: training is progressive, with increasing lengths and rates. We can replace typical AT and UT1 times with these distances whenever we like.

[paddler]

I'm so grateful for all the thoughtful feedback, it's such a generous and welcoming group!

Sounds like a should try to find a little more time to train if I want more results from the erg, and to PB test once a month or so. All the main races for 2022 in my sport of Outrigger Canoe paddling have been canceled, so maybe I will have more time for the erg.

I definitely have some room to improve my form and consistency, if I posted a video, would a 20spm, steady piece be best, or a higher intensity piece?

Thanks again, hope to see some improvements soon.

[Dangerscouse]

I definitely have some room to improve my form and consistency, if I posted a video, would a 20spm, steady piece be best, or a higher intensity piece?

Thanks again, hope to see some improvements soon.

I'd suggest that doing circa 10 strokes at r20, 10 at r25 and 10 at r30, or just circa 15 at r20 & 15 at r30. Your technique will change as you move up the spm, and it gives a better idea of possible pitfalls and changes in style.

The erg is quite meritocratic, with inevitable and unavoidable physical limits, so doing more (quality) metres will always yield better results.

With your growth mindset, physical size and canoeing background you almost can't fail to improve. The extent of your progress is to be seen, but it could be very impressive.

[paddler]

Being new to the rower, you should find improvements fairly easily in all three distances as you get accustomed to rowing, improving form as well as your overall level of fitness.

With the 500M - there's your form when rowing, and the rest is just your ability to "hang" on during the entire 80 to 1XX seconds, depending on how fit & strong you are.

Slipping off the seat is a sure sign of bad form - and don't feel badly, I've done this myself in a contest to row 1:00 for max distance. It was a big clue that I was "Pulling" more with my arms than I was pushing with my legs. If your issue was the same as mine, once corrected, you'll see a faster time. I think you should be encouraged. It's easy enough to practice good form, and even the best of us will slack off on form in a sprint. The key, though, is to maximize the push with the legs from the catch as you start your stroke. For sprints like the 1:00 and the 500M, most rowers will start with a couple of half strokes, or even a 1/4, 1/2 and then into a full stroke. Just depends on what you like. You'll want to practice these to see which works best for you.

Pretty sure there are some YouTube videos that break this down more clearly than my clumsy attempt.

The 1k strategy may vary, but for the most part, folks will plan out a certain pace for the first 500M, then just try to hold on for the next 500m. For those that row at a good clip, the last 500 isn't going to be more than 90 seconds, so they are just accustomed to the inability to breathe and suffer through it.

There are numerous 2k strategies, but the best is to know your abilities well enough to get to your "2k pace" as soon as you possibly can, and just stay at that pace until you've rowed 2k. The 2k time trial is something special, that's for sure. Until you know your 2k pace, it's going to be really tough to figure out what the best pace for you is. Some folks, even experienced rowers, will come out too fast and not be able to sustain the pace for the time trial. Some put the handle down, some just slow down. Over time, you'll determine which is best for you. Good luck!

Really appreciate the strategy tips on the three distances, and I will definitely focus on leg drive more. I am definitely using more upper body.

[paddler]

I definitely have some room to improve my form and consistency, if I posted a video, would a 20spm, steady piece be best, or a higher intensity piece?

Thanks again, hope to see some improvements soon.

I'd suggest that doing circa 10 strokes at r20, 10 at r25 and 10 at r30, or just circa 15 at r20 & 15 at r30. Your technique will change as you move up the spm, and it gives a better idea of possible pitfalls and changes in style.

The erg is quite meritocratic, with inevitable and unavoidable physical limits, so doing more (quality) metres will always yield better results.

With your growth mindset, physical size and canoeing background you almost can't fail to improve. The extent of your progress is to be seen, but it could be very impressive.

Thanks Dangerscouse, I will give that a try. Thanks for the encouragement!

[paddler]

How often do you guys attempt max PB rows?

Whenever in a race, unless we want to go slow. If you have a coach, or a full schedule like the Interactive 2k plans, whenever he she or it says so.

Otherwise, it depends what you need to know; which is usually to check progress and determine training bands.

For example in Wolverine L4s, a 2k test pace is used to define paces at rates 18-20-22-24 etc in pyramids of various types. The same idea can be applied using test Watts and rates. In the Interactives, an initial test 2k defined training bands as Watts, HR or Rating, with another at half way to update.

The 500 is not a race distance, but can be used to plan a 2k race, two days before, if endurance is adequate for that distance. I found this very effective.

I've also used the 500 in place of an initial 2k test, taking half 500 test Watts low rate as initial training level. Luckily for me, my 500 is slow, about 230W, so I train at 115-130W rate 20. Using this idea, your 1:29 being almost 500W, your training will be centered on 250 Watt at low rates in order to develop stroke technique and discipline.

Non-race distances, such as 1k and 5k usually turn out as pbs anyway: training is progressive, with increasing lengths and rates. We can replace typical AT and UT1 times with these distances whenever we like.

Great feedback James, much appreciated. I'll explore the use of Watts as a barometer for effort at low rates, I read that steady rows should not exceed 70% max HR.

[paddler]

Once a month if you go all out.

Any more than that and it affects your training. Age 50 is not great your recovery is slower as well. Obviously some PB's are harder than others, the shorter stuff you can get a reasonable recovery from but that said even the 1 min PB this year stuffed me for days.

Big difference between even 95% and 100% effort.

THIS ^^^^^^^^

Build a good training plan. Work the PB attempts into the plan. One all out effort a month is probably upper bound. If you are new you can set new PBs at a 95% effort level twice a week for a while, but once you are at the "only 100%+ efforts set PBs" level you do not want to be running that level often.

I'm 49, brand new to the Erg, and am using it to cross train 2x/week. I'm interested in improving on three distances, the 500, 1000 and 2k. How often do you guys attempt max PB rows? I was thinking of doing one per month: I did a 1:29 500 this month, will try a 1k in March, 2k in April, repeat.

1:29 500m <-- very nice. Have you seen the ranking database ? That's 75th to 90th percentile for age 40-49. Impressive. https://log.concept2.com/rankings/2022/ ... s=verified

REALLY STRONG and "brand new to the Erg" is a bad combo. Rowing is low impact, but you can hurt yourself, especially if back is in a bad position (think high weight squats with poor form). Plenty of good rowing technique videos on youtube - post if you want recommendations or look for "darkhorserowing" and "concept2 Australia". When people see splits like 1:29 for 500m they assume you know how to row pretty well - if you have any doubts post questions or a video of yourself rowing.

It's normal to slip on the seat starting out, you won't do it once your technique matches your muscles. Look into foot height on stretcher, keep handle height even and not too high, and think "push away from the flywheel" not "push down on the foot stretchers". You slip on the seat because you are using your leg drive (and maybe incorrectly your arms) to lift your butt off the seat. It gets worse with higher effort, shorter pieces. There are non-slip pads that help short term. Once your technique matures you don't need them.

Your plan of one PB attempt per month (500 then 1K then 2K) should work well as long as you are not doing PB attempts in your other sports at the same time. If you are going all out in other sports too you might want to drop the frequency to one across all your sports.

Thanks Tsnor, and unfortunately the note about slower recovery at 50 is right on the money. The ranking database is really interesting, I can't imagine a 1:13 500m, much less holding 1:30 for 2k! Amazing athletes in this sport. You are correct, I am using my upper body too much and will check out the video resources you mention. I will post a video soon and look forward to some feedback. I will be mindful of balancing my PB rows with any racing I do in my main sport of Outrigger canoe paddling. Sadly our main races have been canceled for 2022, so I'll be nice and fresh for my new Erg hobby!

[KeithT]

The group has given you a lot of good info. but my two cents is that testing once a month is plenty (if not a bit much). When I first started converting from CF to being more of an ERGer I was testing stuff a lot and was getting PBs and making great progress but as that slowed it didn't make sense to keep testing so much. I also started trying long rows and when you add that you could test a different distance/time every month and not get them all done in a year. Plus if you give it some time you can see bigger improvements. As you set PBs and do tests make sure to put it on the PB Thread or here so we can look at your pacing and such.