Is there an optimal stroke length?

[Autoland]

I'm 6'0" with a stroke length of `1.20m.

Does this sound about right?

I would think, if there is an optimal stroke length (S), it could be approximated using one's height. A more accurate result may be found using one's leg length (L), arm length (A), and trunk length (T).

Going from 1 o'clock to 11 o'clock results in an angle of 60 deg. This forms an isosceles triangle with a base that represents the contribution of hip swing to the stroke length (S). If Lf and Af are fudge factors that account for leg bend at the catch and the difference between full arm extension and distance between hands at full extension and hands at the finish, S can be determined as follows.

Stroke Length (S) = contribution of leg drive + contribution of hip swing + contribution of arm bend

S = (L - Lf) + (2T * Sin (30)) + (A - Af)

Maybe.

[Sakly]

If all biomechanics and positions/motions are done as expected, sure formulas can be used.
But I am 5'8" with a stroke length of average 1,38 - so from practical point of view there seem to be differences (as not all movements, positions, techniques, biomechanics are equal).

[Autoland]

The contribution of hip swing would likely be less than 2T * Sin (30) depending on where your hands are at the finish. The base of the isosceles triangle would be the difference in shoulder position due to hip swing.

[Autoland]

If all biomechanics and positions/motions are done as expected, sure formulas can be used.
But I am 5'8" with a stroke length of average 1,38 - so from practical point of view there seem to be differences (as not all movements, positions, techniques, biomechanics are equal).

I actually started thinking about this based on one of your posts where you mentioned your stroke length. It might be that my stroke length is indicative of a non-optimal technique.

[Dangerscouse]

In terms of mathematics I have literally no idea, but ime, I find I have a length of 1.42ish when I'm doing a TT, and up to 1:52 when it's steady state.

Notably this has increased with practice as it used to be 1:39 and 1:45, so my hip hinge must have increased with practice. However I do see a wide range of stroke lengths, and even the very elite have it too. Eric Murray and Hamish Bond have markedly different strokes.

[Sakly]

If all biomechanics and positions/motions are done as expected, sure formulas can be used.
But I am 5'8" with a stroke length of average 1,38 - so from practical point of view there seem to be differences (as not all movements, positions, techniques, biomechanics are equal).

I actually started thinking about this based on one of your posts where you mentioned your stroke length. It might be that my stroke length is indicative of a non-optimal technique.

Could be possible.
But I think effective length is coming mainly from a good reach in the catch, shoulders should be a bit loose and protracted. This will lead to the most forward position when back is at "1 o'clock".
The hip swing itself cannot be used to generate more effective length. In the front you "break" the stable position of your back and have to round -> you cannot press strong with your legs as you cannot transfer the power the the handle anymore. At "11 o'clock" you need to lean back more to create length, but this will only waste energy to swing you body back, as you will load your abdominal muscles much more. The stroke will become longer, but not more effective as you cannot put much energy to the handle/flywheel in this position.
I tried to focus on the catch in my first sessions and that seemed to be proper way for a good length

[jamesg]

When I pull my standard vertical-shin catch, short-finish training stroke, I see in ergdata 118-121 cm, for height 183 nowadays. So around 65% height.

This stroke is with flat wrists, is as to C2 dictum. Many prefer a much longer finish, which helps maintain power at lower ratings, as in 30 minute rate 20 tests.

[Autoland]

When I pull my standard vertical-shin catch, short-finish training stroke, I see in ergdata 118-121 cm, for height 183 nowadays. So around 65% height.

This stroke is with flat wrists, is as to C2 dictum. Many prefer a much longer finish, which helps maintain power at lower ratings, as in 30 minute rate 20 tests.

Our stroke length to height ration is about the same at 65%. Both Stu and Sascha have a ratio of about 80%.

I'd be interested to learn what other forum member's ratios might be.

[Tsnor]

Rather than try to form a stroke around a target stroke length, get the stroke correct and see what the length is.

Knowing your optimal stroke length doesn't really help. Rowing the optimal length by getting shins past vertical (wrong), lunging at the catch (wrong) and laying back too much (wrong) to offset failure to rotate hips (wrong) might give you an optimal length, but it's worse than a short stroke caused by poor hip rotation.

As noted above,

Notably this has increased with practice as it used to be 1:39 and 1:45, so my hip hinge must have increased with practice.

your "best form" stroke length will change as you get better.

All that said, your stroke is a bit short since you are 6'0" and have a stroke length of 1.20m. Check for common errors and if all is good then row on.
1. Look at sitting position and hip rotation. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00bIjs3FblE
2. See if your arms are pulling into your chest. If the arms don't pull hard enough to spin the wheel then the PM5 declares the stroke length complete even though you are still moving the handle. Easy to see if this is the case by comparing a very light with the arms stroke with a hard arms stroke, everything else equal. ErgData should show a big difference in stroke length.
3. Make sure your arms are straight out at the catch and in-line with the chain. You don't want hands low or high -- either way your arms are not in line with the chain and your first bit of leg drive doesn't move the flywheel, it just pulls your arms straight. You really don't want your elbow bent at the catch for the same reason. When your seat moves from leg drive you want that handle to move else you lose power and ergdata shows a short stroke.
4. Strong back at the catch. If you body bends towards the flywheel when your legs drive then that part of the drive is lost. Again, when your seat moves from leg drive you want that handle to move rather than the rest of your body changing position.

Aside: last summer we were short 2 for a masters 8 practice row. Coach grabbed two college girls, maybe 5'4" and 5'6" and put them in as stroke pair. I was mentally prepared to short stroke all session, but the girl rowing stroke had a lovely long stroke, matched up perfectly, very easy to follow. It was a great row. Boat really moved. Height is not a perfect indicator of stroke length because people have to learn to compensate to match the boat.

Aside:

Eric Murray and Hamish Bond have markedly different strokes.

However they do it, Eric Murray and Hamish Bond perfectly have matched stroke length or their pair would go nuts. In together, out together, oar blades and handles travel exactly the same distance. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3MALZuvJPg

[Autoland]

Rather than try to form a stroke around a target stroke length, get the stroke correct and see what the length is.

I think my stroke form is correct. A post by Sascha got me thinking that maybe it's not quite as good as I think it is.

I'll post a video in the near future so those who have perfected their stroke can point out any weaknesses in mine.

Thanks all.

[Sakly]

Hmm - I am a beginner, so perhaps MY stroke is not the reference
But it feels good, I feel no fatigue for a long time (could perform a HM nearly two weeks after starting rowing), so it seems that my stroke is efficient and effective as my reached times also are not bad compared to the ranked ones.
Also looking all these videos about technique (mostly Dark horse and training tall) give me the feeling of doing it right.
So I was wondering about your length compared to mine, as I am a bit shorter. Perhaps the reason is that I pull harder until the end and PM5 recognizes a longer stroke due to more and longer acceleration like Tsnor wrote.

[Autoland]

Hmm - I am a beginner, so perhaps MY stroke is not the reference
But it feels good, I feel no fatigue for a long time (could perform a HM nearly two weeks after starting rowing), so it seems that my stroke is efficient and effective as my reached times also are not bad compared to the ranked ones.
Also looking all these videos about technique (mostly Dark horse and training tall) give me the feeling of doing it right.
So I was wondering about your length compared to mine, as I am a bit shorter. Perhaps the reason is that I pull harder until the end and PM5 recognizes a longer stroke due to more and longer acceleration like Tsnor wrote.

Based on your times and your stroke length to height ratio being similar to Stu's, a seasoned veteran, it's likely that your form betters mine.

I'm working on a video, but my cinematography skills are lacking.

[Autoland]

It looks like I may be rounding my back a bit at the catch. I'd appreciate any comments you may have.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=geRe73ejlfM

[Dangerscouse]

Rather than try to form a stroke around a target stroke length, get the stroke correct and see what the length is.

Good point. I didn't try to increase my stroke length it just happened over time. I think that there can be a tendency to slightly clip the stroke, as you instinctively think that getting back to the catch is the best thing to do. I know I used to do it.

Also a good point about Murray & Bond. It was a ergo training video that I saw, and Bond had a notable lean back, compared to Murray. Not sure if it was due to training peculiarities, but I'd also assume that would transfer into OTW too, so probably not.

[Tsnor]

[It was a ergo training video that I saw, and Bond had a notable lean back, compared to Murray. Not sure if it was due to training peculiarities, but I'd also assume that would transfer into OTW too, so probably not.

Wouldn't surprise me if they used slightly different stroke technique to get to exactly the same length, power. In a pair (sweeps rowing, one oar per person, 2 people, one oar on each side of the boat) you've got to be perfectly matched to go in a straight line. If one has longer arms the other needs more reach somehow. Pair is much harder to row than a double scull (2 people, each with two oars, two oars on each side).

US Rowing just published the videos of their 2022 coaching conference. One presentation pointed out 3 different valid techniques and tried to examine which was best, all are in active use at elite levels. Different leg drive, different amount of lean forward, different timing on swinging the hips. All of the videos are here on youtube. https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... bVdoPTVzgM