How Do You Overcome Height Disadvantages?

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » November 25th, 2005, 11:06 pm

Regarding Olympic weightlifting, our coach always ingrained it in us to keep our shoulders over the bar while driving with our legs, to the top where we quickly used our torso and then finished with arms and hands. Now that I see you are saying to get your torso back first, then drive with the legs, I would say that is not at all like the movements in Olympic weightlifting. It seems to me that driving with the legs first is also proper with rowing, creating a type of whipping action with the upper body, shoulders, arms and hands, that you would not get if that possibility were expended at the start.

[old] Jim Barry · Post by **[old] Jim Barry** » November 25th, 2005, 11:07 pm

Thanks for confirming I was doing it correctly lj. On the recovery it seems like I let the slide continue to forward max while I slow my shoulders (or maybe pull them back). This sets a little layback in there just before you dig. It's interesting how this forces the arms to be so straight on drive. I intuitively figured more drag would be necessary, but still have not gone as high as I could. Today's row was an easy row. I've been typically been at 23spm and 2:07 lately. Today, I was fine at 23spm and 2:05 and a few minutes at 23spm and 2:02 has never felt so easy. More testing required. Here is something I dug up from <a href='http://www.widomaker.com/~ehrlich/letter/jul01.html' target='_blank'>http://www.widomaker.com/~ehrlich/letter/jul01.html</a>. It's sort of a diary from Charles Ehrlich a Harvard grad, former Coach at William and Mary and professional coach in England. (I think he might be Swiss himself?). Here he writes about his experience coaching a technique with no forward body lean. <table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>From my coxing days, I had gained the reputation as a technician. When I arrived in Oxford and found everyone using variations on tradition British technique – a concept I did not share – I found myself in an ideal world in many respects. I got to watch a lot of crews using a technique radically different from the various techniques I was familiar with, and I got to challenge myself to refine my own ideas on technique. I was, of course, influenced mostly by Charley Butt, the consummate technique coach, and the various ideas he distilled to us at Harvard – a bit of Harry Parker’s traditional “Harvard” tech, a bit of old East German tech, and a bit of the tech they were developing at Notts County. I also had my own first-hand experience at Notts County, which was immensely profitable. Needless to say, my crews stood out on the Isis, because they used a technique which looked nothing like what anyone else was doing. This issue got compounded with our 1995 First Eight. In figuring out what to do with them, I tinkered here and there. I ended up experimenting with the rig. Basically, what I decided was, that with this particular crew, forward body swing was the root of all evil, so I eliminated it entirely. I had them start their bodies early on the recovery before the arms were straight, to use their arms to get them to sit up. Then they reached the pin with the arms not even completely away, and after that there was no point coming any further forward with the upper body. So they sat bolt upright. Since they were in front of their pins, they had to twist their torsos to come around to the catch. This solved height differences. Then it was just a matter of getting the blades in the water and kicking like h***. They not only looked funny, they sounded funny. I did not have time to teach them how to make a more subtle catch; furthermore given their twisted body position at the catch, it was crucial that the blades be in the water so they could kick. So their catches were rather loud. Then came the acceleration to the finish, and the necessarily big layback given the rig. Cha!... Whoosh! (Old time r.s.r readers may remember that in August of that year there was an entire thread on the newsgroup about my rowing technique.) I had also assumed such a big and novicey crew would need to rate low. That idea did not last. With a little experimenting, I realized they rushed horribly below 36 – all slide and no power - but that at higher rates they realized just how hard they had to kick to keep the rate up on the drives. So we rated high. The only cap on the rating was that we had to be able to complete an entire race at that rate. So race rate ended up around 38-39. This was very do-able, given the elimination of forward body lean. The boat set, there was no rush, and damn they flew. </td></tr></table> And more about the technique here: <a href='http://www.widomaker.com/~ehrlich/letter/aug01.html' target='_blank'>Click for more from Ehrlich</a>

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » November 25th, 2005, 11:14 pm

Another thing we did was to bounce the weights off our thighs, just before thrusting back with our shoulders. I saw a video yesterday of one of the finishers at BIRC who did the same thing on the erg, not bouncing the handle off his thighs but giving a huge thrust to the torso at the end of the leg drive. This was quite apparent in comparison to the many others in the same heat who did not have the same thrust and finished behind him.

[old] ljwagner · Post by **[old] ljwagner** » November 25th, 2005, 11:21 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Nov 25 2005, 07:59 PM)</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Waddell keeps an upright, slightly forward torso position through the drive. </td></tr></table> So where do we go to make fun of Waddell ? No, seriously. Barry looks very appropriate for a first time try. On an erg it is probably pretty easy. Learning in an old mildly twisting 8, with an oar and flopping gunwales and water splashes, it took a lot longer. During balance drills, when we couldn't, we had a few times with oar handles on the gunwales, and the 1 and 8 oar blades were on the water at the same time. One way to check the technique is either a heavier load, or have someone stand beside or behind the erg and try to block the rowers movement down the slide. Someone in a weak back position will be pushed down over his legs. Someone doing this right will either be stopped, or knock down the person trying to hold them back. . You "lock" the back in that position on the drive. Relax the back during recovery. Hands, oh my god they move !!! Catch, beyond the feet. Drive, passing over the feet and legs in sequence ! During the arm pull, moving all the way up to the chest ! Then they go back the other way. What an incredible design !

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » November 25th, 2005, 11:25 pm

From Jim's article on Charles Ehrlich: "Basically, what I decided was, that with this particular crew, forward body swing was the root of all evil, so I eliminated it entirely. I had them start their bodies early on the recovery before the arms were straight, to use their arms to get them to sit up. Then they reached the pin with the arms not even completely away, and after that there was no point coming any further forward with the upper body. So they sat bolt upright. Since they were in front of their pins, they had to twist their torsos to come around to the catch. This solved height differences. Then it was just a matter of getting the blades in the water and kicking like h***. "I had also assumed such a big and novicey crew would need to rate low. That idea did not last. With a little experimenting, I realized they rushed horribly below 36 – all slide and no power - but that at higher rates they realized just how hard they had to kick to keep the rate up on the drives. So we rated high. The only cap on the rating was that we had to be able to complete an entire race at that rate. So race rate ended up around 38-39. This was very do-able, given the elimination of forward body lean. The boat set, there was no rush, and ... they flew."

[old] ljwagner · Post by **[old] ljwagner** » November 25th, 2005, 11:32 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE(Jim Barry @ Nov 25 2005, 08:07 PM)</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Thanks for confirming I was doing it correctly lj. On the recovery it seems like I let the slide continue to forward max while I slow my shoulders (or maybe pull them back). This sets a little layback in there just before you dig. It's interesting how this forces the arms to be so straight on drive. I intuitively figured more drag would be necessary, but still have not gone as high as I could. Today's row was an easy row. I've been typically been at 23spm and 2:07 lately. Today, I was fine at 23spm and 2:05 and a few minutes at 23spm and 2:02 has never felt so easy. More testing required. Here is something I dug up from <a href='http://www.widomaker.com/~ehrlich/letter/jul01.html' target='_blank'>http://www.widomaker.com/~ehrlich/letter/jul01.html</a>. It's sort of a diary from Charles Ehrlich a Harvard grad, former Coach at William and Mary and professional coach in England. (I think he might be Swiss himself?). Here he writes about his experience coaching a technique with no forward body lean. <table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> The boat set, there was no rush, and damn they flew. </td></tr></table> </td></tr></table> Not much more to say after that. Let's not steal from Ehrlich. It's likely his stroke at least. I only learned it from Farwell, but in 1970-1971. So who should get the name ? Farwell referenced the book Rudern. I have a copy, but can not find it.

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » November 25th, 2005, 11:43 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE(ljwagner @ Nov 25 2005, 07:32 PM)</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Not much more to say after that. Let's not steal from Ehrlich. It's likely his stroke at least. I only learned it from Farwell, but in 1970-1971. So who should get the name ? Farwell referenced the book Rudern. I have a copy, but can not find it.[right] </td></tr></table> However, Ehrlich's stroke is not the same, as he recommends rowing bolt upright through the drive. And yours has a lot of backwards torso rotation at the catch, is that right?

[old] ljwagner · Post by **[old] ljwagner** » November 26th, 2005, 1:47 am

1. No we were not bolt upright. Ehrlich's stroke might be a variation on this one. If they could not get the lean motion right, eliminating would have been an acceptable variation. 2. Jim Barry's stroke video was remarkable like watching my nephew on my C2 when we rowed about how I showed him some years ago. It did not occur to me to teach strictly vertical, since the back is even better positioned with a SLIGHT lean to bow. Why do folks keep insisting it is A LOT of torso rotation. If on the recovery, one leans as far forward over their legs as possible, yes that person would have a lot of lean to bring back to bow. I don't lean over my legs like that. I row very similar to Jim Barry. I am not a trained weight lifter, but I know the back is kept in a better position than the average rower. Hip angle is opened just a bit, as too much more, for one, just does not work. It is highly entertaining as in that ridiculus cartoon someone posted. The optimal angle is left as an exercise for the overly analytical out there. My daughter seems to think I am at about 18-24 degrees from vertical, close to clock hands at 1:00. It may vary a bit from person to person, but not by much.

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » November 26th, 2005, 2:24 am

Jim's video shows him rotating his torso back, and then driving with his legs. Is this how you say you do it?

[old] ljwagner · Post by **[old] ljwagner** » November 26th, 2005, 12:56 pm

I don't call Jim Barry's change a lot. But yes, guilty in that there is partial torso rotation from about 30 degrees forward to 24 degrees (or so) back . You read his description of the experience. The erg showed about the same power output, so at worst it is equivalent. I maintain that if I had not rowed this way, as taught in college, at that time, I would have had no chance to be a competitive rower. It does work. My doctor/weightlifting author friend is amazed the normal stroke incurs so few injuries. He said my inclined torso position would utilize the (usually) strong lats to a greater extent than smaller muscles higher in the back, used by being inclined over the legs. The more open hip angle should help apply greater leg strength. But at 100's of repetitions, its an aerobic activity, so he wonders just how much. What people work at, is what they get good at. For the the younger crowd with great low backs, they can row as they wish. Old guys can "cheat" low back problems, or weak low backs, with this technique. Younger guys are welcome to experiment with it as well. If it works, is it wrong, or just different ?

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » November 26th, 2005, 2:27 pm

You can keep your back straight, and your lower back "arched" aka Olympic weightlifting, without rotating your torso backwards before the leg drive. This is exactly the way it is done in Olympic weightlifting. 1) Curving the back forward would indeed be a grievous mistake. Yes the lower back is kept arched and not curved forward (yikes!); 2) Likewise trying to jerk the bar off the floor with the torso would be a very weak position, also likely to cause injury to the back; In Olympic weightlifting, the bar is first accellerated with the strongest muscles, i.e. the legs, while the shoulders are kept in a straight line over the bar, then the torso is merged into use at the end of the leg drive. This is a similar sequence to rowing, i.e. legs, shoulders, arms, hands etc.

[old] Coach Gus · Post by **[old] Coach Gus** » November 26th, 2005, 3:25 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE(ljwagner @ Nov 25 2005, 06:06 PM)</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> I can't say much about the technique's history. But I definitely recall Coach Farwell's saying it was used by the German 4 at the 64' Olympics. My sophmore year, the Freshman included a former pole vaulter (fantastic athletes), and a outrigger canoe paddler with incredible low back strength. They did not straighten up, and apparently did not need to. Some of their Frosh 8 may have rowed the technique my boat used. But fewer and fewer did, as the team got bigger personnel. It gave lwts an advantage, but most new hvwts were strong enough that they did not care for the 10-20% supposed gain for what to them was an awkward style, and mainly considered for lwts. But it does work for anyone. </td></tr></table> Does anybody have any photos or information about whether the German 4 rowed as described in the '64 Olympics? I doubt any video is around but it would be interesting to see this technique in action. If Farwell had coached this technique in your freshman year he had given it up by your sophomore year as he never instructed us to row that way. Again all the photos I have of my frosh boat shows all of us rowing with the same technique and it wasn't anywhere near as you describe. Fortunately, because having some in the boat rowing a different technique from the others is a sure way to slow the boat. I do agree with you that pole vaulters are fantastic athletes. One thing I don't understand is that if this rather odd technique is good for 10-20% gain, why all coaches aren't using it? I don't know any coach who would give away that kind of advantage. It seems to me that this would be a pretty good argument that this technique is not what you claim it to be.

[old] ljwagner · Post by **[old] ljwagner** » November 26th, 2005, 4:36 pm

Considering an eight is a fixed weight, a lighter crew competing against a heavier boat has more to carry from the smaller rowers. If they could main boat momentum a little easier through accelerated slide, and stronger position to use their more limited strength, they they have done all they could to equalize things. Heavyweights at lower rating may be able to be faster then lwts at a higher rating. Just a bit more recovery time with far greater power,and they fade less. Tough call. My F8 broken into 4s, had slow rate hvys againt all lwts at high rate. At 1000m, the bow 4 usually won. We did not go head to head at longer distances in 4s. Your F8 had height and power our's did not have, lightest oar of what, 165, if that ? Farwell could go back to the normal stroke for a big boat. We're lucky he even kept a F8 my year. Good H8 always beats a good LW8, right ? Have fun trying to see why it may have worked. It does have advantages. Logic is not always the best argument. When carrying a couch with someone, do you slouch, or keep your back in a healthier position ?

[old] rspenger · Post by **[old] rspenger** » November 26th, 2005, 5:47 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE(ljwagner @ Nov 26 2005, 01:36 PM)</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Considering an eight is a fixed weight, </td></tr></table> It isn't. Eights are available in both light weight and heavy weight categories - how many different sizes, I don't know, but they are not a one size fits all. Same deal with racing shells other than eights, but I believe that FISA has set a minimum weight for singles. Bob S.

[old] gsedun · Post by **[old] gsedun** » November 26th, 2005, 8:12 pm

Im about 183 cm and im actually one of the taller people on the crew. I find that short people have no disadvantage because in order to keep up with the taller guys they have to be technicly stronger. I also find it frustrating to stroke an eight because everyone else has such short strokes compared to me. So I reccomend not doing a higher stroke rate than the stroke, and to also have a better weight ratio than the others on your crew.

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