How Do You Overcome Height Disadvantages?

[[old] Byron Drachman]

<!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->One should be inclined (SLIGHTLY) to the bow on the drive. </td></tr></table> <br /><br />Hi LJ,<br /><br />I'm enjoying your postings. By the above, do you mean that the back should be slightly curved, or that the upper body should be inclined slightly to the bow on the drive? Wouldn't that mean that you do the body swing, or at least some body swing before you do the leg drive? <br /><br />Years ago, I do remember being told to keep my back straight or even curved a little the way people do during squats during the drive.<br /><br />Have you seen these catch positions? I was surprised the first time I saw them.<br /><br /><a href='http://www.invernessrowingclub.co.uk/catchpos.html' target='_blank'>http://www.invernessrowingclub.co.uk/ca ... tml</a><br /><br />Byron<br /><br /><br />

[[old] ljwagner]

Guilty. But endorsed in a discussion with the Dreissegackers. <br /><br />Swing, and SLIGHT lean to the bow on power application. No increase in the angle, just achieve the lean and drive. Save the criticism until you've tried it. <br /><br />No surprise on those catch positions. Our most egotistical HW's all rowed really curved. Seems it equalizes everyone. the other technique does feel a bit odd in the boat, less brute power too, as a higher rating and less speed loss during recovery occurs.<br /><br />If I had a personal trainer those years, and never got injured, I would have raced more, and Gus might have had a few more memories of me doing something besides not always being there.

[[old] ljwagner]

<!--QuoteBegin-PaulS+Nov 22 2005, 04:13 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Nov 22 2005, 04:13 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Coach Gus+Nov 22 2005, 02:42 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Coach Gus @ Nov 22 2005, 02:42 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-PaulS+Nov 22 2005, 02:12 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Nov 22 2005, 02:12 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Gus, have you discussed your rowing experience with anyone who might try to compile it into a "Walter Mitty" type of imposter?  There are some aspects of this story which reflect a few things I have related to some folks in more private emails.  "Never losing a seat race", Beating the UW Novice M4+ and having the UW coach give our boat "the nod" after following us away fom the race.  Of course the story is mauled enough that it doesn't reflect anything I've said directly.  I was just chalking it up to others having similar experiences in college rowing.<br /><br />I think the Gamut folks marketed the "windowless room" along with the machine, the son of Dick Erickson (UW Crew Coach) related stories to me about it not being uncommon to get a nice puff of cigar smoke in the face during a test. (Things must have been tough in those days)  <br /><br />Was "The Blue Monster" really 'green'?   <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Until these recent posts, I haven't discussed my previous rowing experience with anybody on this forum, not even in private messages. A few of the people I have coached have asked and I have told them. I offered to discuss it with ljwagner in private so as to not embarass anyone whether it be for embellishing our memories or not remembering the details correctly. It's just so much of what has been said sounds so different from what I remember. I had to ask for clarification.<br /><br />My worst experience erging in the windowless "closet" was during a test of a fairly lengthy duration when one of my teammates (nicknamed Spanky) who was up next was in the room and let one rip that brought tears to our eyes. After I was done, I let him know quite clearly to never ever do that again.<br /><br />You'd think as much time as I spent on it, I'd remember what color the erg was. I don't. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Well, it was dark afterall. <br /><br />Under the "Cold Water" thread there is a very strange method of getting back in a 1x laid out in detail by LW. We teach a standard approach to this that seems to be quite normal around the world, but LW came up with something that I have never heard previously.<br /><br />Biological emanations may well be worse than cigar smoke, perhaps we could ban those in public in WA also. <br /><br />Cheers! <br /> </td></tr></table><br /> And an emanation to you sir. There is a reply that says they use the same method I described. If you've got an alternate, folks will likely love to read it. My scull has seen more rain than lake for quite a few years now.

[[old] ljwagner]

<!--QuoteBegin-Coach Gus+Nov 22 2005, 02:42 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Coach Gus @ Nov 22 2005, 02:42 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-ljwagner+Nov 22 2005, 12:29 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(ljwagner @ Nov 22 2005, 12:29 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><br />My coach expected us to learn what he taught. Some of us did learn it.  I did, because I thought I had to and everyone else was .  According to Coach Farwell, it was the technique of the German LWTs who won Gold at the 1964 Olympics in the 4.  We had a small crew in size and numbers.  It was technique or finish 2nd, he said. (We finished 2nd a lot anyway).  <br /><br />   My Freshman year, our little crew of mixed LW and HWs gave UW's freshman their only scare all year. They beat us by half a boat length in Oregon.  No one had even been within 2 lengths of them.  They congratulated us after they beat us. A few of UW's guys won shirts they had to give to their girlfriends or sisters, too small.<br /><br />   I was undersized, but apparently superpowered. My junior year, I inadvertently won an HWT seat challenge in a 4. I thought I was brought along as seat filler during the other seat challenges.  But in all the heats, where I went when seats were swapped, that boat won.  I was 145 lbs, I was a LWT, and I was racing at the end of the year in a HW4. It had to be technique.  I was strong, but not a bull.  I only weighed 145 !<br /><br />   You don't suppose it had something to do with keeping my back in a strong position while others rowed with an at least slightly weakened back ? <br />   I rowed pairs with 200 lb guys, not slackers, guys who raced. Most struggled to keep the pair on a straight course with me in it. Going all out, not backing off as a courtesy to the LWT.  We raced other pairs, usually winning (1000m and 500m only). My partners were not as tired, since the boat was 50 pounds light for them. But they could not pull any harder either.  You'd think they'd be able to pull the boat in circles on a guy weighing 50 pounds less. Never happened.  <br /><br />How could I be doing that ?  I did not use steroids, meth, cocaine or anything else.  I ate fairly healthy, and a lot.  6000 calories a day.  <br /><br />  This technique is forgotten and out of favor, as its probably only possible with a very disciplined coach and crew who understand and believe it will work.  Size becomes less critical than personal effort to learn and work hard at all the right things.  But it absolutely works.  I rowed it in Alden doubles with my dad when he was 68.  Have you ever rowed one of those ? They are big enough for a family bath, and row like a tub.  We even got swing in the Alden.<br /> <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />We went to Santa Clara at the same time and this doesn't at all sound like anything we did. First, Farwell was relatively new to coaching and while he was a great motivator and a great guy, he was not at very helpful from a technical standpoint. One thing we never did as a team is row as you describe. Not one photo I have shows such a back position. I remember that you had serious back problems your sophomore year. Perhaps it was from your "strong back position." <br /><br />The strangest thing to me is you say you were super strong with great technique and never lost a seat race. Yet, you weren't in any heavyweight boat that I can recall. Except for your sophomore year when your back was hurt most of the time, I don't even recall you rowing. Your junior year our two heavyweight fours at the end of the year were made up of Machado, Albers, Glover and Trela in the top boat and Crocker, Denton, Small and Bishop in the 2nd four. We didn't row a hwt eight because we wouldn't have been competitive. We did have an LW eight and you weren't in that boat either as it was made up of Argyris, Tumanjan, Masdeo, Mahoney, Teater, McCauley, Radigan, and Begun. Where exactly were you?<br /><br />While it's great to encourage people to not let height be a handicap to rowing or erging success, I think it's important to be accurate in your representation of what you did as a rower when you're using yourself as an example. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Be happy to fill you in on some Santa Clara crew trivia from areas you were not a part of. I was there. I did get hurt, but not rowing, except for a hip flexor tear that took me out of the LW 8 my junior year. A lot you may not want to hear could be verified by Argyris, with whom I spent the most time on the water. <br /><br />Was I there ? Bow seat with plaid hat, LW 8 student directory 1972-1973 cover says I was. Bruce Trela, Al Rudolph, and O'Brien had dinner and slept at my parents apartment in 1972 during the Regionals.<br /><br />I can make the whole thing public for anyone to challenge, and a few to sue for slander (that's when something is true and they did not like it being told, right ?). Respect is nice, wherever, whenever it comes. Disrespect and name calling should be beneath adults. Isn't that when someone is wrong and doesn't know what else to say. When in doubt, insult them ?<br /><br />If a viable example of what Farwell asked my F8 to do is not available, I'll see if I can make a little video and send it. Can't row hard though. Recovering from a strained mitral valve. Yep. Injured again. <br /><br />That little cartoon video was a kick, but my rowing never looked like that. I just have not heard WHY what Jim taught us should not work. Saying it does not make it so. It made Jerry become my roommate after he rowed a pair-oared wherry with me, and the two of you after that NCs in the pair. You never thanked me for prepping him for you, by the way.

[[old] PaulS]

<!--QuoteBegin-ljwagner+Nov 23 2005, 01:28 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(ljwagner @ Nov 23 2005, 01:28 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-PaulS+Nov 22 2005, 04:13 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Nov 22 2005, 04:13 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Coach Gus+Nov 22 2005, 02:42 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Coach Gus @ Nov 22 2005, 02:42 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-PaulS+Nov 22 2005, 02:12 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Nov 22 2005, 02:12 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Gus, have you discussed your rowing experience with anyone who might try to compile it into a "Walter Mitty" type of imposter?  There are some aspects of this story which reflect a few things I have related to some folks in more private emails.  "Never losing a seat race", Beating the UW Novice M4+ and having the UW coach give our boat "the nod" after following us away fom the race.  Of course the story is mauled enough that it doesn't reflect anything I've said directly.  I was just chalking it up to others having similar experiences in college rowing.<br /><br />I think the Gamut folks marketed the "windowless room" along with the machine, the son of Dick Erickson (UW Crew Coach) related stories to me about it not being uncommon to get a nice puff of cigar smoke in the face during a test. (Things must have been tough in those days)  <br /><br />Was "The Blue Monster" really 'green'?  <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Until these recent posts, I haven't discussed my previous rowing experience with anybody on this forum, not even in private messages. A few of the people I have coached have asked and I have told them. I offered to discuss it with ljwagner in private so as to not embarass anyone whether it be for embellishing our memories or not remembering the details correctly. It's just so much of what has been said sounds so different from what I remember. I had to ask for clarification.<br /><br />My worst experience erging in the windowless "closet" was during a test of a fairly lengthy duration when one of my teammates (nicknamed Spanky) who was up next was in the room and let one rip that brought tears to our eyes. After I was done, I let him know quite clearly to never ever do that again.<br /><br />You'd think as much time as I spent on it, I'd remember what color the erg was. I don't. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Well, it was dark afterall. <br /><br />Under the "Cold Water" thread there is a very strange method of getting back in a 1x laid out in detail by LW. We teach a standard approach to this that seems to be quite normal around the world, but LW came up with something that I have never heard previously.<br /><br />Biological emanations may well be worse than cigar smoke, perhaps we could ban those in public in WA also. <br /><br />Cheers! <br /> </td></tr></table><br />And an emanation to you sir. There is a reply that says they use the same method I described. If you've got an alternate, folks will likely love to read it. My scull has seen more rain than lake for quite a few years now. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br /><br />Well, folks are welcome to go read it in Rowing News, Vol 12, No 6 August 2005, pages 72-3. Simply had never heard of the method you describe, it might have even greater practicality with todays hard decked boats, rather than the soft cloth decks common 20+ years ago.<br /><br />Please do video an example of the rowing technique you are refering to, it would be interesting to see. No problem that you have to take it easy, most folks row the same regardless of the effort involved, habits and all. I've said a number of times, and I'll repeat it just for you. Even doing the wrong things, all together, may well be better than doing the right things but not together. Many crews have won, and still do, while exhibiting less than stellar technique, they can overcome the flaws in various ways. A recent example is the CAN crews "use of layback", they won with it and got spanked, so is it "the thing to do" or not? Answer: It depends on the crew.<br /><br />Our boat sees about equal rain and lake here in the NW.

[[old] remador]

Forgive me, but I also don't understand how can a leaning-to-the-bow back make, <i>per se</i>, a boat go faster. <br /><br />Does it reduce chest compression? Well, it might, but i) you won't be breathing freely, anyway, since rowing <i>allways</i> contracts your breathing muscles; ii) the difference in chest compression intensity will probably be annihilated by a higher rate/higher number of respiratory compressions.<br /><br />Your stroke length will be diminished, which won't, IMO, be compensated by a higher stroke rate, just because you can't apply the same overall power. Rowing is not weighlifting, and pulling seated is not the same as pulling standing. Even your legs might be less engaged if you lean back your trunk (does the slide slip forward?).<br /><br />Anyway, can anyone show us a video?<br /><br />AM

[[old] ljwagner]

<!--QuoteBegin-PaulS+Nov 23 2005, 06:43 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Nov 23 2005, 06:43 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-ljwagner+Nov 23 2005, 01:28 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(ljwagner @ Nov 23 2005, 01:28 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-PaulS+Nov 22 2005, 04:13 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Nov 22 2005, 04:13 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Coach Gus+Nov 22 2005, 02:42 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Coach Gus @ Nov 22 2005, 02:42 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-PaulS+Nov 22 2005, 02:12 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Nov 22 2005, 02:12 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Gus, have you discussed your rowing experience with anyone who might try to compile it into a "Walter Mitty" type of imposter?  There are some aspects of this story which reflect a few things I have related to some folks in more private emails.  "Never losing a seat race", Beating the UW Novice M4+ and having the UW coach give our boat "the nod" after following us away fom the race.  Of course the story is mauled enough that it doesn't reflect anything I've said directly.  I was just chalking it up to others having similar experiences in college rowing.<br /><br />I think the Gamut folks marketed the "windowless room" along with the machine, the son of Dick Erickson (UW Crew Coach) related stories to me about it not being uncommon to get a nice puff of cigar smoke in the face during a test. (Things must have been tough in those days)  <br /><br />Was "The Blue Monster" really 'green'?   <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Until these recent posts, I haven't discussed my previous rowing experience with anybody on this forum, not even in private messages. A few of the people I have coached have asked and I have told them. I offered to discuss it with ljwagner in private so as to not embarass anyone whether it be for embellishing our memories or not remembering the details correctly. It's just so much of what has been said sounds so different from what I remember. I had to ask for clarification.<br /><br />My worst experience erging in the windowless "closet" was during a test of a fairly lengthy duration when one of my teammates (nicknamed Spanky) who was up next was in the room and let one rip that brought tears to our eyes. After I was done, I let him know quite clearly to never ever do that again.<br /><br />You'd think as much time as I spent on it, I'd remember what color the erg was. I don't. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Well, it was dark afterall. <br /><br />Under the "Cold Water" thread there is a very strange method of getting back in a 1x laid out in detail by LW. We teach a standard approach to this that seems to be quite normal around the world, but LW came up with something that I have never heard previously.<br /><br />Biological emanations may well be worse than cigar smoke, perhaps we could ban those in public in WA also. <br /><br />Cheers! <br /> </td></tr></table><br />And an emanation to you sir. There is a reply that says they use the same method I described. If you've got an alternate, folks will likely love to read it. My scull has seen more rain than lake for quite a few years now. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br /><br />Well, folks are welcome to go read it in Rowing News, Vol 12, No 6 August 2005, pages 72-3. Simply had never heard of the method you describe, it might have even greater practicality with todays hard decked boats, rather than the soft cloth decks common 20+ years ago.<br /><br />Please do video an example of the rowing technique you are refering to, it would be interesting to see. No problem that you have to take it easy, most folks row the same regardless of the effort involved, habits and all. I've said a number of times, and I'll repeat it just for you. Even doing the wrong things, all together, may well be better than doing the right things but not together. Many crews have won, and still do, while exhibiting less than stellar technique, they can overcome the flaws in various ways. A recent example is the CAN crews "use of layback", they won with it and got spanked, so is it "the thing to do" or not? Answer: It depends on the crew.<br /><br />Our boat sees about equal rain and lake here in the NW. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br /> Well, thank you for a seconding of how I claim to get back in the scull. <br /><br /> I was a good listener, and no one there, to my knowledge, was ever "taught" how to get in from the water. Crazy events got tales told at breakfast. Either you got back in on your own, or waited for the launch. I was a good listener, and like I said before, I'm really grateful to the guys to have been willing to share their efforts with each other, and then figuring out the right way, even if they were not talking to me at the time. <br /><br /> The lake was narrow, so I may have been able to swim out. But I just went on automatic, and did what the others described. It worked. I shared it, too. If sharing it saves one life, it makes it right for at least THAT person.<br /><br /> You are right, too, of course. Many technique variations can work. Weaknesses can be compensated for. To be fast with laybacks, takes well trained low backs I suspect. Being tall in the torso, makes it tougher on me. My shorter spined twin rowed at UCLA with a layback. We don't row together, and never could. We tried and I could not stand his hard long layback, and he would not give it up to row fast and tall with a long catch like me. My Dad rowed with both of us, and adapted to either style. Slow, long, and powerful with my twin. More upright, with swing, and a higher rating with me. Dad said his fastest times were with all with me, being minutes faster in a 2 mile row to the breakwater. <br />

[[old] Byron Drachman]

<!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->One leans to the stern on the recovery. One should be inclined (SLIGHTLY) to the bow on the drive. </td></tr></table> <br /><br />Hi LJ,<br /><br />Sorry to be dense about this, but I still don't get it. If you roll up to the catch leaning to the stern, and you are supposed to be inclined to the bow on the drive, are you saying as soon as you let the blades drop into the water, you do a body swing towards the bow, and then do the leg drive? I'd love to hear a detailed explaination of your stroke. <br /><br />Byron<br /><br />

[[old] ljwagner]

As to the imposter supposition, definitely not. Gus I'm sure never lost any. I doubt he was ever even in one. But Gus did not see my Freshman year, when I was never hurt. He apparently was never told by his pair partner that prior to being in a wherry with me, he did not have a clue how good I was in a boat. Once his partner got embarrassed as a Freshman, by a guy 50 lbs lighter, he got serious about training. Now Gus knows the rest of THAT story. Jerry Machado beats himself to a pulp trying to keep a wherry straight while rowing bow with me, and realized he had a lot of work to do. <br /><br />Spring 1971, there was the dubious situation of 4 starboards and 2 ports for a LW4 and one port threatened to take his ball and go home. There were seat races,and the losers were in the 4, since they were his boys. I ended up in the afore mentioned HW4, with Rudolph, Trela, and O'Brien, and myself. We found out the hard way, for a lwt to race with heavy's takes the year training with them. I hadn't, and twice we were witnessed leading at 1000m in Long Beach, only to have me run out of gas by 1500m. That is how I know you can't go all out an entire race. I tried to go 100% the whole race, and failed, publicly. Foolishly, I thought I had to show I deserved to be in the boat. The last 500 meters was in front of the bleachers at Long Beach Marine Stadium, and I could barely drag my oar through the water the last 500 meters. <br /><br />So coaches, teach your children wisely. Stay a touch below LT, and you'll be able to sprint to the max at the end. too long over it, and you are toast, and can't comeback. Just ain't possible. From what I since learned from Exercise Physiology, you've got to stay just below LT, or you can not make 7 minutes, let alone 6 at maximum effort. Physically impossible. You can look it up.

[[old] Dickie]

<!--QuoteBegin-PaulS+Nov 22 2005, 06:12 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Nov 22 2005, 06:12 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><br /><br />Was "The Blue Monster" really 'green'?  <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />I also used the old Gamut Ergometer When I was at Worcester Polytechnic Institute in 1974-5. Ours was Blue.

[[old] Dickie]

How do you overcome Height disadvantage? The vast majority don't, and they have to live with that. Elite levels of all sports are dominated by those who have just the right 'whatever' to succeed. that does not mean that there are not exceptions, (a 5' 4" basketball player in the NBA in the 50's comes to mind) but those exceptions are very few indeed. If you want to overcome, then the only successful method I have ever heard of is hard work and perseverence.<br /><br />If you could overcome your height disadvantage on the erg by stretching forward more at the catch, leaning back more at the finish or increasing the rate, then everyone would be doing it and we would have massive numbers of elite athletes or more probably the elite would be doing it also to maintain the edge they already have. <br /><br />50 years of life experience have taught me that there are no shortcuts, if you want something, you have to work and sacrifice for it, and you have to work harder and sacrifice more than those that have the right 'whatever'.<br /><br />If you have more modest goals, as I do, like being the best I can be, setting new PB's or maybe just catching the person above me on the ranking list and then the person after that, the recipe is the same, hard work.

[[old] Byron Drachman]

<!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->One leans to the stern on the recovery. One should be inclined (SLIGHTLY) to the bow on the drive. </td></tr></table> <br /><br /><!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Swing, and SLIGHT lean to the bow on power application. No increase in the angle, just achieve the lean and drive. Save the criticism until you've tried it. </td></tr></table> <br /><br />Hi LJ,<br /><br />I'd love to try it. <br /><br />I'll try asking one last time: Exactly when do you change from the forward lean to the stern to the backward lean to the bow? If the first quote is correct, there would have to be a swing from the forward to backward lean between the recovery and drive. The second quote makes me think you mean that the very first part of the drive is a backward lean, happening during the leg drive. Is that it? Do you start the drive with the backward lean and then do the leg drive, or is it an "integrated" stroke where some of the backward lean is at the beginning of the drive along with the leg drive, and then you continue the body swing back as you do the leg drive? Could your stroke simply be described as starting the leg drive and body swing at the same time?<br /><br />I'm also confused by the concept of achieving the lean without increasing the angle.<br /><br />Maybe it's just me, I'm having trouble following your description. I would like to hear more details. Thanks.<br /><br />Byron<br /><br />

[[old] ljwagner]

The odd technique.<br /><br />Here is the body angle on 1) recovery, 2) power application, 3) attached links of most folks rowing today.<br /> body<br /> angle<br />1. Bow / Stern (on recovery)<br />2. Bow \ Stern (on power application)<br />3. Bow C Stern (never catch me doing it)<br /><br /> The angle of the keyboard slashes is pretty close. <br /><br /> In the links (3), the back would have the Spinal erectors stretched maximally. No one out of shape could do that without doing their backs serious damage. An out of shape person can row this (1,2) technique with out hurting their back. Its always in a strong position.<br /><br /> When and how do you change body angle ? Well, at the very tail end of the slide, you pivot in the hips,and shoulders. At the moment you are at max slide, you should be at 2, and drive the legs down. It may be your hands get to full reach position, and the body angle changes right up to the catch, so you don't over extend. Its easier with a pause at the finish, and a SLIGHTLY accelerated slide to the drive position. <br /><br /> The accelerated slide to the stern actually brings UP boat speed at the catch. Physical laws of motion, same as the Fosbury flop. Flopper drops arms and legs, and his hips rise, center of mass passes below the bar. Shoulders move to stern at catch position, followed by hips and torso still accelerating with blade entering the water at the last instant, and push, more acceleration as the legs move the boat. It does not feel strong, since you moved the boat forward with the mass of the rowers before applying power.<br /><br /> If all 8 rowers sit at the finish, boat stopped, then slide to stern together. What does the boat do ? Do it faster. What happened the next time ? It will move forward, no ?<br /><br />Regarding extra reach, it is actually shortened at the catch in this technique I am describing. The rowers with the C back are reaching about a foot farther forward, with an even tighter angle on the boat, and a further diminished force vector to the rear on power application. The further you reach, the closer to the side of the boat the oar blade comes.<br /><br />On shoulder height. C shoulders bring the shoulders way up and forward on the body, and way down closer to the knees on the rower. The rower can pull higher "down" toward his shoulders, but in an extreme stretch. But that seems to isolate the arm pull to smaller back muscles located higher. <br /><br />Question: on a lat pull where do you have the most strength ? At full stretch, or the bottom 50%.<br /><br />This C position ought to also be very risky for spinal damage from the front edges of spinal bones hitting each other, and angular pressure on discs. I suppose one does not need to worry about shoulders down on the lungs, so they are not consticted down, just forward, depending on how extreme the C.<br /><br />Driving like this (bow) \, however the shoulders are high, and back. Arm pull lower, engaging bigger back muscles lower down. Shoulders are back and out of the way of the lungs. Spinal discs ae at normal even compression, safely able to carry the maximum load from the legs through the hips to the shoulders The hip angle is more open than C, putting a stonger area of the glutes into play sooner. <br /><br /> We produce Lactate all the time. Again, you can look it up. We mainly get enough Oxygen to finish the fuel combustion process and never feel a Lactic Acid burn most of our lives. Some people never feel it. LT is the point where you can no longer get enough oxygen to complete the process. The longer you are above LT, the more oxygen you need to get to complete the combustion of an ever growing amount of Lactic Acid. So stay there 20 seconds, it will take longer to recover than for 5 seconds. Hit it briefly and back off really slightly, tip just under LT, and its gone right away. You can maintain that just-under-LT-pace almost indefinitely. Like a marathoner.<br /><br />But checkout sprinters and other top runners. No one is round shouldered, or high shouldered. Sprinters especially have wide open chests, especially the 220 and 440 guys who are big, and suck all the Oxygen they can, even though they go anerobic almost the whole way. But the anerobic system gets you 45 seconds or so. They know if they are NOT hitting LT, they are not at max speed. Sprinters don't care how out of breath they are at 45 seconds. 5 or 10 minutes later they are fine. Milers stay under LT, and only hit it on the last lap, usually the last 220, depending on their mile time. Too soon, and they can't complete the sprint. <br /><br />Think about top marathoners. About a 5 minute mile pace, 26 consecutive, no rest. Are they above LT the whole time ? Three guesses and the first two don't count. They can't be, and aren't They can run faster than a 5 minute mile, but not 26 in a row. They stay just below LT.<br /><br />Rowing, you want that 45 seconds for the end of the race, not the beginning. Be above LT rowing for 200 meters, and when do you get out of oxygen debt ? You can't, you just hope everyone else is not quite as ready as you. Its traditional. Whoever can sprint at the end, was not dogging it earlier, they were pacing at just below their LT. <br /><br /> I would expect the team with 1) the best speed at a hair under LT and 2) best sprint speed for greatest distance will always win that day. All that matters is boat speed, and avoidance of errors to slow a boat. Technique just gets you there. If a crew CAN'T get a given technique, no point trying. Train to reduce weaknesses and maximize strengths. To maximize catch acceleration, you can go for huge leg strength at low stroke, a bit less strength at higher stroke, with more cardio capacity, or to the adventurous, accelerated slide plus strength and the big cardio capacity, or long layback with appropriate strength training.<br /><br />Try a balloon test. A doctor friend says I am right on that too, on the effect of an open chest and a constricted chest.<br /><br />You can't repeal the laws of motion, change logic of any set of individuals, or repeal how our energy systems work. <br /><br />You can train harder, do more intervals, do different weight workouts and exercises, be creative with boat work, get different equipment, change diet, motivate people to do their best, hope you get great athletes to work with, and learn from mistakes.<br /><br />A smaller crew can't go all brute force, they do higher pace, and any other trick they can. Jim Farwell had 2 good Lwts my Freshman year, 2 good hwts, and 4 borderline (by weight, not ability) lwts in the 160s, and 4 poor hwts. One poor hwt transitioned to excellence. Jim made a competitive hwt 8 using every trick he knew, which included trying accelerated slide, tall seat, angle change at the catch. I think he maintained that for lwts for awhile afterwards. We sort of got it. I apparently got it best. It did not matter, I was just trying to do what he wanted. There was no prize. It kept me in the boat, and that helped keep boats competitive. Everyone was happy, except those who were prejudiced against us weight challenged guys. <br /><br />

[[old] ljwagner]

Lean in a boat makes more sense. On erg, be comfortable, operate in your comfort zone, and where you have strength. There is no concern for acceleration, unless you'd like to slide across the garage. Its my habit, and works for me.<br /><br />Open hip angle will be stronger than too tight. Layback works if you have a strong low back.<br /><br />Experiment a bit, but don't hurt yourself. An erg can function like a weight machine if you do intervals of 3-10 strokes all out. You'll build rowing power muscles. But maintain muscle balance, so you won't achieve the local distinction of most injured.

[[old] Byron Drachman]

Hi LJ,<br />Thanks for that discussion. My only remaining question is about the change of lean at the catch. I still don't know exactly when it happens. <br /><br /><!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->and the body angle changes right up to the catch </td></tr></table><br /><br />Does this mean that by the time you are letting the blades drop into the water, you already have the leanback? In other words, if I follow you, the first part of the recovery is arms forward, then forward lean, and then as you slide toward the catch you are gradually changing from the lean toward the stern to leaning to the bow. Some people would call that shooting the slide, right?<br /><br />I agree that accelerating toward the catch speeds up the boat's speed. I assume people are reluctant to do that because of the dreaded "stern check" and because it makes the catch harder to time correctly. <br /><br />I can certainly try out something new, just for the fun of it if nothing else. Next time I'm on the water, I'll see. I use a Garmin Forerunner 201 (they cost about $100 if you shop around) so I can see the effects on my speed as I try various things. <br /><br />Thanks again for your postings. They're always interesting.<br /><br />added after editing: One more thing. Could your hip flexor injury be related to the stroke and not keeping the usual forward lean during the recovery?<br /><br />Byron