How Do You Overcome Height Disadvantages?

[[old] Ray79]

<!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+Nov 11 2005, 03:24 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Nov 11 2005, 03:24 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What if everyone is rowing at 39 spm, except you who is doing 22 spm?  <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Try it the next time your in a boat John <br />

[[old] John Rupp]

<!--QuoteBegin-Ray79+Nov 11 2005, 12:27 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Ray79 @ Nov 11 2005, 12:27 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+Nov 11 2005, 03:24 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Nov 11 2005, 03:24 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What if everyone is rowing at 39 spm, except you who is doing 22 spm?  <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Try it the next time your in a boat John <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />No thanks, Ray!

[[old] ljwagner]

Power is strength in reduced time. If your stroke is about the same length, and you are quicker through the water, the others height will be immaterial.<br /><br />My college had a great 8 with the 6 man 5'6". Upper body like Barry Bonds (massive). But great oar speed. That's the key. Some lanky guy whose oar drifts through the water is not making the boat move.<br /><br />I rowed in a mixed alum boat once. This guy had stories about him doing 1000 situps in 30 minutes for a case of beer. Well, this guy pulls through the water and gets from catch to finish in half the time of the rest of us. No missed water, oar shaft arcs, beautiful finish. He made the boat jump by himself. Incredible. <br /><br />Strength and power. Don't worry about your height.

[[old] jbell]

Just an opinion, but couldnt you make up for the legnth the taller rowers can take that you cant by being more flexible?? The more verticle your shins and more compressed your back is.

[[old] ljwagner]

To make it simple, a rounded back is a weakened back. <br /><br />Once you are at the catch, you are in a weight lifting position, doing an explosive squat. For that, you want your back slightly arched, slightly leaning to the bow, tall, locked, powerful, immoveable. LEG DRIVE, then pull. Back and shoulder angle on the leg drive and arm pull should not change.

[[old] PaulS]

<!--QuoteBegin-ljwagner+Nov 22 2005, 09:39 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(ljwagner @ Nov 22 2005, 09:39 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->To make it simple, a rounded back is a weakened back. <br /><br />Once you are at the catch, you are in a weight lifting position, doing an explosive squat.  For that, you want your back slightly arched, slightly leaning to the bow, tall, locked, powerful, immoveable.  LEG DRIVE, then pull.  Back and shoulder angle on the leg drive and arm pull should not change. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />The image you are creating with those words represents nothing that would be seen at Elite levels of rowing, and something that is trying to be corrected by coaches just about anywhere rowing is being taught.<br /><br />It does bring to mind the "ask Jeeves" rower that shows up from time to time in ad banners. <br /><br />Perhaps you could try for a bit more detail, it sounds as if you did fine when rowing, and may still be, but something must be getting lost in translation. i.e. "Slightly leaning to the bow" [when at the catch]?

[[old] John Rupp]

<!--QuoteBegin-PaulS+Nov 22 2005, 10:26 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Nov 22 2005, 10:26 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The image you are creating with those words represents nothing that would be seen at Elite levels of rowing, and something that is trying to be corrected by coaches just about anywhere rowing is being taught.[right] </td></tr></table><br /><br />Show him your video, Paul. <br />

[[old] PaulS]

<!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+Nov 22 2005, 11:36 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Nov 22 2005, 11:36 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-PaulS+Nov 22 2005, 10:26 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Nov 22 2005, 10:26 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The image you are creating with those words represents nothing that would be seen at Elite levels of rowing, and something that is trying to be corrected by coaches just about anywhere rowing is being taught.[right] </td></tr></table><br /><br />Show him your video, Paul. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Mine is no fun, how about yours?<br /><img src='http://mrweb.com/altrower/arower1.gif' border='0' alt='user posted image' />

[[old] rspenger]

<!--QuoteBegin-ljwagner+Nov 22 2005, 10:39 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(ljwagner @ Nov 22 2005, 10:39 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->To make it simple, a rounded back is a weakened back. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />That may be true, but my rather pronounced kyphosis does not seem to have interfered with my rowing. I still remember overhearing the comment of the trainer that accompanied our crews to a meet. He was pointing out to some one that, "a back like that is too weak for rowing." Evidently he didn't think that the coach should have put me on the team, especially not the varsity. The coach did, however, even though he had good reason to doubt my motivation (for entirely different reasons). Since we went on to win the last IRA regatta held at Poughkeepsie on that trip, he couldn't have been too far off in his judgment.<br /><br />I have since seen other kyphotic rowers that have done very well, including one of the top ergers on record, although their curvatures are less than mine. Mine was obvious in my teens, but has increased considerably with age. I topped out at 6'1" in my twenties, but am barely 5' 10 1/2" at 81. Some of the height loss is due to flattening of the discs, but most of it is a result of increased kyphosis.<br /><br />Bob S., alias Quasimoto<br /><br />

[[old] ljwagner]

One leans to the stern on the recovery. One should be inclined (SLIGHTLY) to the bow on the drive. Its difficult. It requires flexibility. Getting the back curved out also opens the chest so you can breath better. I did a balloon test. Shoulders hunched vs pulled back ? Double the air capacity in the lungs with the shoulders pulled back. What do you suppose the effect on VO2 max might be ?<br /><br />I had an e-mail discussion with one of the Dreissigacker brothers a few years ago related to this. I think the essense was that ideally I was right, but few coaches and athletes can accomplish it. The discussion also involved slight pause at the finish, and accelerated slide to the catch. Those give a boat swing. Its ideal, but no one thinks they have time, want to risk retraining a good boat, or a crew smart enough to be able to re-learn a very different technique.<br /><br />At Santa Clara, where I rowed, the team had a lot of Physics, Math, and engineering majors rowing. There was no P.E department to get a supply of pure jocks from. Teaching a technique requiring more mental work was a possibility there at that time.<br /><br />At the catch, applying power, a rower is doing the equivalent of a full squat. Anatomically, if the back is rounded forward, not arched back, when applying weight through the shoulders, the back is in a weakened position.<br /><br />Weight lifters do enormous lifts with weights at arms length overhead from a full squat. Attempting that with a rounded back is anatomical suicide. They always employ an arched back. see this book cover on amazon.com:<br /><a href='http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/097195 ... s&v=glance' target='_blank'>http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/097195 ... nce</a><br /><br />That lifter will then stand up with over 100 KG in that position. I have the first edition. The author is a doctor, engineer,and weight lifting expert. He is putting out a revised edition late 2005 that is an easier read so he says. It may be available on Amazon com now. I have a review there of the first edition.<br /><br />My coach expected us to learn what he taught. Some of us did learn it. I did, because I thought I had to and everyone else was . According to Coach Farwell, it was the technique of the German LWTs who won Gold at the 1964 Olympics in the 4. We had a small crew in size and numbers. It was technique or finish 2nd, he said. (We finished 2nd a lot anyway). <br /><br /> My Freshman year, our little crew of mixed LW and HWs gave UW's freshman their only scare all year. They beat us by half a boat length in Oregon. No one had even been within 2 lengths of them. They congratulated us after they beat us. A few of UW's guys won shirts they had to give to their girlfriends or sisters, too small.<br /><br /> I was undersized, but apparently superpowered. My junior year, I inadvertently won an HWT seat challenge in a 4. I thought I was brought along as seat filler during the other seat challenges. But in all the heats, where I went when seats were swapped, that boat won. I was 145 lbs, I was a LWT, and I was racing at the end of the year in a HW4. It had to be technique. I was strong, but not a bull. I only weighed 145 !<br /><br /> You don't suppose it had something to do with keeping my back in a strong position while others rowed with an at least slightly weakened back ? <br /> I rowed pairs with 200 lb guys, not slackers, guys who raced. Most struggled to keep the pair on a straight course with me in it. Going all out, not backing off as a courtesy to the LWT. We raced other pairs, usually winning (1000m and 500m only). My partners were not as tired, since the boat was 50 pounds light for them. But they could not pull any harder either. You'd think they'd be able to pull the boat in circles on a guy weighing 50 pounds less. Never happened. <br /><br />How could I be doing that ? I did not use steroids, meth, cocaine or anything else. I ate fairly healthy, and a lot. 6000 calories a day. <br /><br /> This technique is forgotten and out of favor, as its probably only possible with a very disciplined coach and crew who understand and believe it will work. Size becomes less critical than personal effort to learn and work hard at all the right things. But it absolutely works. I rowed it in Alden doubles with my dad when he was 68. Have you ever rowed one of those ? They are big enough for a family bath, and row like a tub. We even got swing in the Alden.<br /><br /> We no longer allow a top crew to compete as we did in the 40's thru what, the 70's ? Back when the top University crew or club team could take a spot at the Olympics ? UW had the best teams in the country and the world. Then, different boats could have different styles, since they competed as a boat. Now we dump them in one progam. Any individual coach who works with less than top athletes, may try something different to win. But then if the rower tries to make the big show, and you row like no one else, they don't want them, or insist on the uniform common technique. <br /><br /> I am less than impressed with elite programs. Last Olympics, there were boats in the gold medal competiton with bad timing, missed water, oar bucking, and sloppy finishes. I think in one 4, the bow pair were in the water with about 2-3 feet of oar movement before the stern pairs blades hit the water. Understood they are competing multiple times per day and many times a week, and not sleeping in their own beds. I sure hope their technique just falls apart at the end due to fatigue of the long season.<br /><br />

[[old] PaulS]

Sounds like you should be giving Ranger a run for his money. <br /><br />I didn't start rowing until about 10 years after you and have coached hundreds of rowers of various skill, had my fair share of success, am fairly well studied on rowing technique from Fairbairn to Spracklen to Pocock to Cunningham. And still can not figure how being in layback right from the catch is going to help with length or power.<br /><br />Perhaps you can get a bit of video of yourself doing this, or hook up ErgMonitor and demonstrate directly with a representative force profile. Either way, if this is something that works it sure needs to not be forgotten. Contrary to what Ranger implies about "new" or "old" things being discussed.<br /><br />

[[old] Coach Gus]

<!--QuoteBegin-ljwagner+Nov 22 2005, 12:29 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(ljwagner @ Nov 22 2005, 12:29 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><br />My coach expected us to learn what he taught. Some of us did learn it.  I did, because I thought I had to and everyone else was .  According to Coach Farwell, it was the technique of the German LWTs who won Gold at the 1964 Olympics in the 4.  We had a small crew in size and numbers.  It was technique or finish 2nd, he said. (We finished 2nd a lot anyway).  <br /><br />  My Freshman year, our little crew of mixed LW and HWs gave UW's freshman their only scare all year. They beat us by half a boat length in Oregon.  No one had even been within 2 lengths of them.  They congratulated us after they beat us. A few of UW's guys won shirts they had to give to their girlfriends or sisters, too small.<br /><br />  I was undersized, but apparently superpowered. My junior year, I inadvertently won an HWT seat challenge in a 4. I thought I was brought along as seat filler during the other seat challenges.  But in all the heats, where I went when seats were swapped, that boat won.  I was 145 lbs, I was a LWT, and I was racing at the end of the year in a HW4. It had to be technique.  I was strong, but not a bull.  I only weighed 145 !<br /><br />  You don't suppose it had something to do with keeping my back in a strong position while others rowed with an at least slightly weakened back ? <br />  I rowed pairs with 200 lb guys, not slackers, guys who raced. Most struggled to keep the pair on a straight course with me in it. Going all out, not backing off as a courtesy to the LWT.  We raced other pairs, usually winning (1000m and 500m only). My partners were not as tired, since the boat was 50 pounds light for them. But they could not pull any harder either.  You'd think they'd be able to pull the boat in circles on a guy weighing 50 pounds less. Never happened.  <br /><br />How could I be doing that ?  I did not use steroids, meth, cocaine or anything else.  I ate fairly healthy, and a lot.  6000 calories a day.  <br /><br />  This technique is forgotten and out of favor, as its probably only possible with a very disciplined coach and crew who understand and believe it will work.  Size becomes less critical than personal effort to learn and work hard at all the right things.  But it absolutely works.  I rowed it in Alden doubles with my dad when he was 68.  Have you ever rowed one of those ? They are big enough for a family bath, and row like a tub.  We even got swing in the Alden.<br /> <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />We went to Santa Clara at the same time and this doesn't at all sound like anything we did. First, Farwell was relatively new to coaching and while he was a great motivator and a great guy, he was not at very helpful from a technical standpoint. One thing we never did as a team is row as you describe. Not one photo I have shows such a back position. I remember that you had serious back problems your sophomore year. Perhaps it was from your "strong back position." <br /><br />The strangest thing to me is you say you were super strong with great technique and never lost a seat race. Yet, you weren't in any heavyweight boat that I can recall. Except for your sophomore year when your back was hurt most of the time, I don't even recall you rowing. Your junior year our two heavyweight fours at the end of the year were made up of Machado, Albers, Glover and Trela in the top boat and Crocker, Denton, Small and Bishop in the 2nd four. We didn't row a hwt eight because we wouldn't have been competitive. We did have an LW eight and you weren't in that boat either as it was made up of Argyris, Tumanjan, Masdeo, Mahoney, Teater, McCauley, Radigan, and Begun. Where exactly were you?<br /><br />While it's great to encourage people to not let height be a handicap to rowing or erging success, I think it's important to be accurate in your representation of what you did as a rower when you're using yourself as an example.<br /><br />

[[old] PaulS]

Now, How can this be? <br /><br />An Elephant is much like a snake.<br />No, It's much like a tree.<br />No, It's much like a rope.<br />No, It's much like a spear.<br />etc......<br /><br />Gus, have you discussed your rowing experience with anyone who might try to compile it into a "Walter Mitty" type of imposter? There are some aspects of this story which reflect a few things I have related to some folks in more private emails. "Never losing a seat race", Beating the UW Novice M4+ and having the UW coach give our boat "the nod" after following us away fom the race. Of course the story is mauled enough that it doesn't reflect anything I've said directly. I was just chalking it up to others having similar experiences in college rowing.<br /><br />I think the Gamut folks marketed the "windowless room" along with the machine, the son of Dick Erickson (UW Crew Coach) related stories to me about it not being uncommon to get a nice puff of cigar smoke in the face during a test. (Things must have been tough in those days) <br /><br />Was "The Blue Monster" really 'green'?

[[old] Coach Gus]

<!--QuoteBegin-PaulS+Nov 22 2005, 02:12 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Nov 22 2005, 02:12 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Gus, have you discussed your rowing experience with anyone who might try to compile it into a "Walter Mitty" type of imposter?  There are some aspects of this story which reflect a few things I have related to some folks in more private emails.  "Never losing a seat race", Beating the UW Novice M4+ and having the UW coach give our boat "the nod" after following us away fom the race.  Of course the story is mauled enough that it doesn't reflect anything I've said directly.  I was just chalking it up to others having similar experiences in college rowing.<br /><br />I think the Gamut folks marketed the "windowless room" along with the machine, the son of Dick Erickson (UW Crew Coach) related stories to me about it not being uncommon to get a nice puff of cigar smoke in the face during a test. (Things must have been tough in those days)  <br /><br />Was "The Blue Monster" really 'green'?   <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Until these recent posts, I haven't discussed my previous rowing experience with anybody on this forum, not even in private messages. A few of the people I have coached have asked and I have told them. I offered to discuss it with ljwagner in private so as to not embarass anyone whether it be for embellishing our memories or not remembering the details correctly. It's just so much of what has been said sounds so different from what I remember. I had to ask for clarification.<br /><br />My worst experience erging in the windowless "closet" was during a test of a fairly lengthy duration when one of my teammates (nicknamed Spanky) who was up next was in the room and let one rip that brought tears to our eyes. After I was done, I let him know quite clearly to never ever do that again.<br /><br />You'd think as much time as I spent on it, I'd remember what color the erg was. I don't.

[[old] PaulS]

<!--QuoteBegin-Coach Gus+Nov 22 2005, 02:42 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Coach Gus @ Nov 22 2005, 02:42 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-PaulS+Nov 22 2005, 02:12 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Nov 22 2005, 02:12 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Gus, have you discussed your rowing experience with anyone who might try to compile it into a "Walter Mitty" type of imposter?  There are some aspects of this story which reflect a few things I have related to some folks in more private emails.  "Never losing a seat race", Beating the UW Novice M4+ and having the UW coach give our boat "the nod" after following us away fom the race.  Of course the story is mauled enough that it doesn't reflect anything I've said directly.  I was just chalking it up to others having similar experiences in college rowing.<br /><br />I think the Gamut folks marketed the "windowless room" along with the machine, the son of Dick Erickson (UW Crew Coach) related stories to me about it not being uncommon to get a nice puff of cigar smoke in the face during a test. (Things must have been tough in those days)  <br /><br />Was "The Blue Monster" really 'green'?   <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Until these recent posts, I haven't discussed my previous rowing experience with anybody on this forum, not even in private messages. A few of the people I have coached have asked and I have told them. I offered to discuss it with ljwagner in private so as to not embarass anyone whether it be for embellishing our memories or not remembering the details correctly. It's just so much of what has been said sounds so different from what I remember. I had to ask for clarification.<br /><br />My worst experience erging in the windowless "closet" was during a test of a fairly lengthy duration when one of my teammates (nicknamed Spanky) who was up next was in the room and let one rip that brought tears to our eyes. After I was done, I let him know quite clearly to never ever do that again.<br /><br />You'd think as much time as I spent on it, I'd remember what color the erg was. I don't. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Well, it was dark afterall. <br /><br />Under the "Cold Water" thread there is a very strange method of getting back in a 1x laid out in detail by LW. We teach a standard approach to this that seems to be quite normal around the world, but LW came up with something that I have never heard previously.<br /><br />Biological emanations may well be worse than cigar smoke, perhaps we could ban those in public in WA also. <br /><br />Cheers!