Weight Vs Length

[old] PaulS · Post by **[old] PaulS** » November 22nd, 2005, 10:00 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(ljwagner @ Nov 21 2005, 09:00 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Coach Gus @ Nov 20 2005, 10:32 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(ljwagner @ Nov 20 2005, 08:01 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>On our erg in college, we calculated horsepower per pound. Who was top ?<br />There was a 3 way tie.<br /><br />220 lb 6'5" HWT 165 lb 5'9" LWT 145 lb 6'0" LWT<br /><br /> Fastest runners on the team ? The first and third guys listed above.<br /> Longest stroke ? The 3rd guy.<br /> Worst OTW Technique ? The HWT.<br /> Best OTW Technique ? Again, the 3rd guy.<br /><br /> [right] <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />What college and what year was this? <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Why do you ask, Coach ? <br /><br />University of Santa Clara. I graduated in 1974.<br /><br />I think those erg scores were from late 1971, or early 1972. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />What kind of Erg? The C2 model A didn't come on the scene for another 10 years, and surprisingly enough we still went for the same notion of watts/lb as being somewhat definitive. Only because the lwts wanted some sort of credit for powerr that they didn't have.

[old] tditmar · Post by **[old] tditmar** » November 22nd, 2005, 11:20 am

Googled "tall rowers leverage," and up came this from FAQ on UC Davis Rowing website.<br /><br /><a href='http://www.ucdcrew.org/novicefaq.php' target='_blank'>http://www.ucdcrew.org/novicefaq.php</a><br /><br />The last question on the page:<br /><br />Why do you want very tall or very small people?<br />Tall rowers have a leverage advantage in the boat. They are able to take a longer stroke to pry the boat ahead. Being taller does not guarantee success, but it does give you an advantage. Many shorter athletes are also successful at the collegiate level; commitment and hard work can take any athlete a long way in this sport. We also look for small, highly competitive athletes who are very light to be the coxswain and steer the boat, as well as provide strategy and motivation.<br /><br /><br /><br />It seems obvious that it is generally accepted that taller rowers have an advantage. Sure there are anomalies like in any sport (Spud Webb comes to mind), but how can there really be an argument here.

[old] PaulS · Post by **[old] PaulS** » November 22nd, 2005, 11:35 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(tditmar @ Nov 22 2005, 07:20 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>It seems obvious that it is generally accepted that taller rowers have an advantage. Sure there are anomalies like in any sport (Spud Webb comes to mind), but how can there really be an argument here. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />"Over Six foot two? Come out for Crew!" - You mean we didn't just say this because it rhymed? <br /><br />Surely, you aren't really wondering "how can there really be an argument here"?

[old] Blue_No2 · Post by **[old] Blue_No2** » November 22nd, 2005, 11:58 am

As I struggled thru my morning not-quite-a-routine yet, I pondered the same thing.<br />Being 5'8" with a 28" inseam, I wondered if the advice from the C2 instuctions (I'm a newbie) of keeping spm in the low 20's made sense for me.<br /><br />Isn't this equivalent of piston stroke in an engine. The shorter the stroke, the higher the RPM required to output equivalent power. And big block NASCAR engines running bored out V8's excel in generating torque at relatively low rpm (vs F1 engines). <br /><br />I would imagine that this would really help on the water where there's a stability advantage to long and strong vs a shortie like me trying to compensate by stroking 25-30% faster.<br /><br />Of course the real issue (for me, at least), as I try to break a 20 min 5K, is just basic fitness and undoing the sloth of my mid 30s. It's not the length of my legs tht the problem, more the width of my gut!

[old] tditmar · Post by **[old] tditmar** » November 22nd, 2005, 11:58 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Nov 22 2005, 10:35 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><br />Surely, you aren't really wondering "how can there really be an argument here"? <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br /><br />Point well taken!

[old] Blue_No2 · Post by **[old] Blue_No2** » November 22nd, 2005, 11:59 am

As I struggled thru my morning not-quite-a-routine yet, I pondered the same thing.<br />Being 5'8" with a 28" inseam, I wondered if the advice from the C2 instuctions (I'm a newbie) of keeping spm in the low 20's made sense for me.<br /><br />Isn't this equivalent of piston stroke in an engine. The shorter the stroke, the higher the RPM required to output equivalent power. And big block NASCAR engines running bored out V8's excel in generating torque at relatively low rpm (vs F1 engines). <br /><br />I would imagine that this would really help on the water where there's a stability advantage to long and strong vs a shortie like me trying to compensate by stroking 25-30% faster.<br /><br />Of course the real issue (for me, at least), as I try to break a 20 min 5K, is just basic fitness and undoing the sloth of my mid 30s. It's not the length of my legs tht the problem, more the width of my gut!

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » November 22nd, 2005, 12:47 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Nov 22 2005, 06:00 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>we still went for the same notion of watts/lb as being somewhat definitive. Only because the lwts wanted some sort of credit for powerr that they didn't have. [right] </td></tr></table><br /><br />That's the standard in all the physiology texts, and stands up very well when you need to carry your own weight.<br /><br />The power has to be there or else it won't show up.<br /><br />It's an easy calculation to do.<br />

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » November 22nd, 2005, 12:48 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Blue_No2 @ Nov 22 2005, 07:58 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Isn't this equivalent of piston stroke in an engine. The shorter the stroke, the higher the RPM required to output equivalent power.[right] </td></tr></table><br /><br />Yes it's exactly the same principle.<br />

[old] Coach Gus · Post by **[old] Coach Gus** » November 22nd, 2005, 1:08 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Nov 22 2005, 06:00 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(ljwagner @ Nov 21 2005, 09:00 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><br /><br />Why do you ask, Coach ? <br /><br />University of Santa Clara. I graduated in 1974.<br /><br />I think those erg scores were from late 1971, or early 1972. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />What kind of Erg? The C2 model A didn't come on the scene for another 10 years, and surprisingly enough we still went for the same notion of watts/lb as being somewhat definitive. Only because the lwts wanted some sort of credit for powerr that they didn't have. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />I can't remember the name of the erg. I seem to recall somebody saying it was something starting with a "g." (EDIT: My son just reminded me that it was a Gamut.) It had a regular oar handle set up just like a boat and you had to switch it from side to side depending on whether you wanted to use it as port or starboard. All it had was an odometer style measuring instrument like what you'd use back then on a bicylce to measure mileage. We just had one. Cal had two or three of them that were the same type. My son says OSU still has a couple of them.

[old] PaulS · Post by **[old] PaulS** » November 22nd, 2005, 1:13 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Nov 22 2005, 08:47 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Nov 22 2005, 06:00 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>we still went for the same notion of watts/lb as being somewhat definitive. Only because the lwts wanted some sort of credit for powerr that they didn't have. [right] </td></tr></table><br /><br />That's the standard in all the physiology texts, and stands up very well when you need to carry your own weight.<br /><br />The power has to be there or else it won't show up.<br /><br />It's an easy calculation to do. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Of course it is an easy calculation to do, but linear normalization of things like power generation and VO2Max simply don't explain things properly. i.e. there will never be a good enough explanation for the underoptimized athlete who wants to claim their performances are equal to another based on some sort of "equalization factor".<br /><br />The world is not an equal place, and life isn't fair, so stop whining and get to work.

[old] PaulS · Post by **[old] PaulS** » November 22nd, 2005, 1:21 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Coach Gus @ Nov 22 2005, 09:08 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Nov 22 2005, 06:00 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(ljwagner @ Nov 21 2005, 09:00 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><br /><br />Why do you ask, Coach ? <br /><br />University of Santa Clara. I graduated in 1974.<br /><br />I think those erg scores were from late 1971, or early 1972. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />What kind of Erg? The C2 model A didn't come on the scene for another 10 years, and surprisingly enough we still went for the same notion of watts/lb as being somewhat definitive. Only because the lwts wanted some sort of credit for powerr that they didn't have. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />I can't remember the name of the erg. I seem to recall somebody saying it was something starting with a "g." (EDIT: My son just reminded me that it was a Gamut.) It had a regular oar handle set up just like a boat and you had to switch it from side to side depending on whether you wanted to use it as port or starboard. All it had was an odometer style measuring instrument like what you'd use back then on a bicylce to measure mileage. We just had one. Cal had two or three of them that were the same type. My son says OSU still has a couple of them. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />"The Blue monster"! <br /><br />There were a couple of these still hanging about the UW boathouse prior to it being torn down and replaced, I wonder if they kept them. That machine was highly dependent on the weight in the basket, and just counted revs IRRC. Typical test was to achieve as many revolutions as you could in a set time period. Very unpleasant since no matter how hard you go you can't get done any quicker. <br /><br />I've never heard of a way to convert that machines data to Watts, do you have the figures on that?

[old] Coach Gus · Post by **[old] Coach Gus** » November 22nd, 2005, 1:31 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Nov 22 2005, 09:21 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><br />"The Blue monster"! <br /><br />There were a couple of these still hanging about the UW boathouse prior to it being torn down and replaced, I wonder if they kept them. That machine was highly dependent on the weight in the basket, and just counted revs IRRC. Typical test was to achieve as many revolutions as you could in a set time period. Very unpleasant since no matter how hard you go you can't get done any quicker. <br /><br />I've never heard of a way to convert that machines data to Watts, do you have the figures on that? <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />No, I don't have any figures on that and that's why I was asking ljwagner about it. Since the suspended weight could be altered and all you had was a revolution counter, I didn't know how an accurate measurement of hp could be made.<br /><br />Our erg was in a small windowless room in the basement of one of the dorms. Few used it unless it was a required workout. Coach gave me a key so I could use it whenever I wanted to and did so almost everyday I was at school. I loved working out on it. <br />

[old] ljwagner · Post by **[old] ljwagner** » November 22nd, 2005, 1:51 pm

Gus, were you at Santa Clara ? The only Gus I knew was Gus Albers, my former roommate's pair partner and co-National Champ in the pair. Famous for his great arms, effortless speedy rope climbs with feet overhead, and killer smile for the girls.<br /><br />Our machine was green and made of a lot of angle irons. In the basement of San Fillippo hall opposite the laundry room. It had a heavy flywheel against which was drawn a brake, that was weighted with increments of 1/4 lb. For a heavier workout, you increased the brake weight.<br /><br />We had a lot of EE and ME students who between them would have figured out how to compute anything. Our erg had a big clock, and a simple rpm counter that locked when time expired. We never imagined how long a last 10 seconds could be.

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » November 22nd, 2005, 3:31 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Nov 22 2005, 09:13 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>there will never be a good enough explanation for the underoptimized athlete who wants to claim their performances are equal to another based on some sort of "equalization factor". </td></tr></table><br /><br />Looks like you're out of luck then, Paul! <br /><br /><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>The world is not an equal place, and life isn't fair, so stop whining and get to work. [right] </td></tr></table><br /><br />There ya go, keep at it anyway! <br />

[old] PaulS · Post by **[old] PaulS** » November 22nd, 2005, 3:42 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Nov 22 2005, 11:31 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Nov 22 2005, 09:13 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>there will never be a good enough explanation for the underoptimized athlete who wants to claim their performances are equal to another based on some sort of "equalization factor". </td></tr></table><br /><br />Looks like you're out of luck then, Paul! <br /><br /><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>The world is not an equal place, and life isn't fair, so stop whining and get to work. [right] </td></tr></table><br /><br />There ya go, keep at it anyway! <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />John,<br /><br />What are you talking about? I've been the one that people like you have tried to calculate themselves up to the level of, never bothered about it going the other way around.<br /><br />I can handle being a "has-been", can you handle being a "never was (or ever will be)"?

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