Help/advice on training to become better with endurance and efficiency.

[Flash95]

Hi all, I posted a Reddit question a while back and was recommended to come here. I did a L2R (Learn to row) course back in April at my local club since then Im obsessed with rowing! I have competed in Charles Stanley sprints against 2 clubs and soon a 1k back and forth time trial. I’m currently doing weekend mornings for the sweep squad 7-9am then a 10:30 - 12-45 as a development session sculling/sweep.

I now have a 14 week plan from one of the coaches at my club ranges from 19 -25 min pieces not long.2/3 sessions a week I roughly try for 4 then do a barbell session and kettlebell session so around 6 sessions a week. As the weeks go on the SPM go up for e.g week 1 was - 4m at 18, 3m at 20, 2m at 22 1m at 24 then back down pattern. I’m on week 4 now which is,

4/18. 3/20. 2/22. 1/24. 1/22. 1/24. 1/22. 1/24. 2/22. 3/20. 4/18.

Before I had this plan I was all over the place doing workouts that some were too easy and some pretty damn hard. Does anyone know of any plans that will get my endurance better?

Second, has anyone had a go on the C2 sliders? I’m aiming to get some soon.

Don’t know if my age etc helps anyone…

25
6’1
82kg

[mitchel674]

Welcome to the forum.

What's your goal?

If you feel you need to work on aerobic endurance, those 19-25 minute sessions are not going to get you there. We mostly talk about 2-3 sessions/week rowing at steady state for 45+ minutes. The pyramid type sessions your coach has provided are good to help you work on rating up.

[Cyclist2]

Welcome!

I do pyramids all the time. Similar to yours and I try to keep the watts per stroke steady, so I hold 8 watts per stroke. At 18spm it's 144 watts, at 20 spm it's 160 watts, etc. (you being a lot younger may be able to go for 10+ watts per stroke). I do the pyramid, take a rest break of about 2-4 minutes and then do another. I usually get 4 of those in. Great for endurance, strength, and stroke improvement.

As mitchel674 said, longer, low rate pieces are good to build base endurance.

For general overall improvement I recommend the Pete Plan, https://thepeteplan.wordpress.com/the-pete-plan/.

I also have slides. Lots easier on my back, and more like OTW rowing. Makes the rowing more comfortable, so I can go for a longer time. Helps with stroke efficiency, too.

Good luck!

[jamesg]

14 week plan from one of the coaches at my club ranges from 19 -25 min

This suggests he plans to get you racing next year, and that you already have the basic endurance.

You need to maintain the stroke at all ratings, this is what counts. The short 1 to 4 minute pieces help in this. On the erg you can estimate the Watt/Rating ratio, keep it high, 10 or better.

On slides the erg stroke is more similar to afloat.

[Flash95]

Welcome to the forum.

What's your goal?

If you feel you need to work on aerobic endurance, those 19-25 minute sessions are not going to get you there. We mostly talk about 2-3 sessions/week rowing at steady state for 45+ minutes. The pyramid type sessions your coach has provided are good to help you work on rating up.

So I’m super competitive and what to race and become the best I can. Ok I’ll look at try some longer sessions. What about SR during a longer sessions 18-22?

[Flash95]

14 week plan from one of the coaches at my club ranges from 19 -25 min

This suggests he plans to get you racing next year, and that you already have the basic endurance.

You need to maintain the stroke at all ratings, this is what counts. The short 1 to 4 minute pieces help in this. On the erg you can estimate the Watt/Rating ratio, keep it high, 10 or better.

On slides the erg stroke is more similar to afloat.

Yes we are gearing up to enter races next year. I’m the plan he has split times for each SR which I was beat as I find it too high never looked into watts…

[mitchel674]

Welcome to the forum.

What's your goal?

If you feel you need to work on aerobic endurance, those 19-25 minute sessions are not going to get you there. We mostly talk about 2-3 sessions/week rowing at steady state for 45+ minutes. The pyramid type sessions your coach has provided are good to help you work on rating up.

So I’m super competitive and what to race and become the best I can. Ok I’ll look at try some longer sessions. What about SR during a longer sessions 18-22?

Yes. 18-22spm and your target pace of 2k+20 for these long pieces. I suspect your coach would expect you doing these at least twice weekly along with the prescribed stroke rate pyramids.

[Flash95]

Welcome!

I do pyramids all the time. Similar to yours and I try to keep the watts per stroke steady, so I hold 8 watts per stroke. At 18spm it's 144 watts, at 20 spm it's 160 watts, etc. (you being a lot younger may be able to go for 10+ watts per stroke). I do the pyramid, take a rest break of about 2-4 minutes and then do another. I usually get 4 of those in. Great for endurance, strength, and stroke improvement.

As mitchel674 said, longer, low rate pieces are good to build base endurance.

For general overall improvement I recommend the Pete Plan, https://thepeteplan.wordpress.com/the-pete-plan/.

I also have slides. Lots easier on my back, and more like OTW rowing. Makes the rowing more comfortable, so I can go for a longer time. Helps with stroke efficiency, too.

Good luck!

Thanks for that mate. I think I’d definitely get some slides just have to use them wisely and not too much as static is where the hard work is right?

[Tsnor]

Most people like slides, some don't. Slides on an erg take about 11 feet total so plan for some room.

I'd suggest you asking your coach if you can borrow some, or use some at the club before buying them. The good points are noted above in the thread - more like OTW rowing and easier on your back.

ALSO: Becoming better at rowing is a lot of technique work. Erging can give you bad habits. Watch for smooth straight hands. Watch for handle height not ending too high (higher ending gives more erg power, but you can't do it in a boat). Watch for steady stroke rate while erging (strokes per minute) you'll want to learn to crank these rate changes out especially is you ever sit stroke. Get your back swing and hip swing right. Plenty of good technique videos on youtube from Dark Horse rowing. Concept2 Austrialia also has a few good ones. If you don't spend time in person with your coach send him video from the side of you rowing at 80% effort and a comfortable rate. You can also post videos here and ask for feedback.

ALSO: "Better with Endurance and Efficiency" is about the training strategy to build your engine. There are a set of podcasts at https://www.fasttalklabs.com/category/fast-talk/ goto the early podcasts. They are cycling focused, but apply directly to rowing. Or google "polarized training" or "pyramid training". The TLDR versions is lots of long slow work to build an aerobic base plus 2 days/week of hard work is what elite rowers, runners, cyclists, skiers, etc use for their training. Note: it sounds like you are working closely with a coach. IF so you need to follow their instructions. If there is no long/slow work in your training plan then talk to your coach about adding some. 45 minutes at a conversational pace.

I think I’d definitely get some slides just have to use them wisely and not too much as static is where the hard work is right?

Oddly (or I think it's odd) the work done with slides is just as hard/easy as work done without slides. You'll hit the same heart rates, drive the same watts. The stroke rate may be different. If you like slides you can use them for all your workouts. (Setting up slides is a pain, so you don't want to keep swapping them in and out).

[jamesg]

In the plan he has split times for each SR which I .. find too fast never looked into watts…

Edited; hope I've understood your meaning.

The paces (split times) he suggested are probably in line with what oarsmen of your size and age can do. If you find them too fast, you may have a technique problem. If so, this must be resolved first; training more or harder is not the solution.

What are your current typical paces and ratings in the suggested pieces?

[Flash95]

In the plan he has split times for each SR which I .. find too fast never looked into watts…

Edited; hope I've understood your meaning.

The paces (split times) he suggested are probably in line with what oarsmen of your size and age can do. If you find them too fast, you may have a technique problem. If so, this must be resolved first; training more or harder is not the solution.

What are your current typical paces and ratings in the suggested pieces?

Oh sorry I may have come across as if I was struggling haha. The split times are to easy for me but I think it’s a general time which most people can achieve and all work together.

So I haven’t reached the workouts where I go up to 26,28,30 SPM but the SPM below them are,

18 - 2.20
20 - 2.18
22 - 2.16
24 - 2.14

[Flash95]

Most people like slides, some don't. Slides on an erg take about 11 feet total so plan for some room.

I'd suggest you asking your coach if you can borrow some, or use some at the club before buying them. The good points are noted above in the thread - more like OTW rowing and easier on your back.

ALSO: Becoming better at rowing is a lot of technique work. Erging can give you bad habits. Watch for smooth straight hands. Watch for handle height not ending too high (higher ending gives more erg power, but you can't do it in a boat). Watch for steady stroke rate while erging (strokes per minute) you'll want to learn to crank these rate changes out especially is you ever sit stroke. Get your back swing and hip swing right. Plenty of good technique videos on youtube from Dark Horse rowing. Concept2 Austrialia also has a few good ones. If you don't spend time in person with your coach send him video from the side of you rowing at 80% effort and a comfortable rate. You can also post videos here and ask for feedback.

ALSO: "Better with Endurance and Efficiency" is about the training strategy to build your engine. There are a set of podcasts at https://www.fasttalklabs.com/category/fast-talk/ goto the early podcasts. They are cycling focused, but apply directly to rowing. Or google "polarized training" or "pyramid training". The TLDR versions is lots of long slow work to build an aerobic base plus 2 days/week of hard work is what elite rowers, runners, cyclists, skiers, etc use for their training. Note: it sounds like you are working closely with a coach. IF so you need to follow their instructions. If there is no long/slow work in your training plan then talk to your coach about adding some. 45 minutes at a conversational pace.

I think I’d definitely get some slides just have to use them wisely and not too much as static is where the hard work is right?

Oddly (or I think it's odd) the work done with slides is just as hard/easy as work done without slides. You'll hit the same heart rates, drive the same watts. The stroke rate may be different. If you like slides you can use them for all your workouts. (Setting up slides is a pain, so you don't want to keep swapping them in and out).

I appreciate the information. I’ll ask him for longer pieces. If it’s easier on my back I’m all for it! Also I know when you do 2k, 5k tests they need to be done on a static erg.

[jamesg]

I've tacked on the the corresponding Watt and Work levels:

18 - 2.20 - 128W = 7.1 (=128/18)
20 - 2.18 - 133W = 6.7
22 - 2.16 - 142W = 6.5
24 - 2.14 - 145W = 6.0

Not bad, but you can do better than that. As you continue training, see if you can maintain at least the Work 7 seen at rate 18, at the higher ratings too. The key will probably be to use your legs first and fast at the catch, from a strong posture. This will show in Ergdata as higher average force, and willl also help to lengthen the stroke.

See the C2 technique videos:

https://www.concept2.com/indoor-rowers/ ... que-videos

[Flash95]

I've tacked on the the corresponding Watt and Work levels:

18 - 2.20 - 128W = 7.1 (=128/18)
20 - 2.18 - 133W = 6.7
22 - 2.16 - 142W = 6.5
24 - 2.14 - 145W = 6.0

Not bad, but you can do better than that. As you continue training, see if you can maintain at least the Work 7 seen at rate 18, at the higher ratings too. The key will probably be to use your legs first and fast at the catch, from a strong posture. This will show in Ergdata as higher average force, and willl also help to lengthen the stroke.

See the C2 technique videos:

https://www.concept2.com/indoor-rowers/ ... que-videos

Ok thanks I’ll take a look. Yeah those times are what’s be given by one of the coaches but I’m always pushing past those times. Sometimes hitting 1.49 at 24. Which I shouldn’t be doing.Just keep to what’s he’s given me I guess.

[jamesg]

I’m always pushing past those times. Sometimes hitting 1.49 at 24. Which I shouldn’t be doing.

Why not? 1:49 is 270W at 24 (270/24 = 11) and as expected, given your age and size. If you can routinely pull a stroke like that, just do it.

Using Watts as control, you can see what you are doing: at rate 18, 18*11 = 198 W, and so on, using the time scheme you described.