Critque These Video Techniques

[[old] aligilli]

First, thanks to those who posted this link: <a href='http://www.invernessrowingclub.co.uk/catchpos.html' target='_blank'>http://www.invernessrowingclub.co.uk/ca ... tml</a><br /><br />I had sent the link to a friend whos an experienced rower and he gave the following critique of the 2 guys on the erg, "ME!!" and "Paul Smith". This is nothing personal. Let me know if my friends critque of those two guys are correct. <br /><br />"The guy on the left labled (Me!!) is doing a few things wrong. He is initiating the stroke with his back. You notice on the first slide of his drive his back moves before his legs. You want to drive with the legs first, then back than finish with the arms. He is also pulling in a tiny bit too low and dropping his hands slightly. You do not want the erg handle to move up and down, you want it to move in a straight manner along the entire stroke. Movement up and down is just wasted energy. A straight line is the shortest distance from the catch to the finish(thus using the least energy). Also coming from the finish your arms are supposed to come out first than your back lean and than your legs. His legs are coming up too early. Also he could be helped quite a bit by focusing on relaxing his shoulders. They seem quite tight, more so than nessecary. These are all pretty typical beginner mistakes and generally speaking this guys form aint that bad. As for the other guy right next to him... hes got worse form for sure.<br />He doesnt drop or move his hands up and down much but his knees are coming up WAY too early on the recovery. The handle is at his fingertips which is not recommended (puts more stress on the forarms) You should be holding the handle in your hands like you would hold a baby bird. Lightly but make sure your hand is wrapped aound the oar with your wrists in the air so its not jut your fingertips hangin on for dear life like this guy. This guy actually doesnt seem to initiate the stroke with his back very much which is good but about a quarter the way through the stroke he starts pulling with his arms and back, which is deff a way to give you sore arms and bad erg scores and doesnt optimize your power."<br /><br />Any thoughts?

[[old] rspenger]

<!--QuoteBegin-aligilli+Nov 11 2005, 08:23 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(aligilli @ Nov 11 2005, 08:23 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You do not want the erg handle to move up and down, you want it to move in a straight manner along the entire stroke. Movement up and down is just wasted energy. A straight line is the shortest distance from the catch to the finish(thus using the least energy). <br />These are all pretty typical beginner mistakes and generally speaking this guys form aint that bad. <br />Any thoughts? <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Any OTW rower, beginner or expert, who does not move his/her hands up and down while exercising on an erg is going to mess up his/her technique for rowing on the water. Check out the short video clip on Xeno's website. The straight line bit may be O.K. for those who never intend to row on water with a sliding seat, but if the machine is used for winter exercise by an OTW rower (I believe that this was why it was designed in the first place) that rower should try as much as possible to match the technique needed in a boat, even though it might make for slightly slower times on the machine.<br /><br />Bob S. <br />

[[old] John Rupp]

Excellent evaluations and nice web page.<br /><br />I have noticed those same things about Paul's video before and they were pointed out on rec.rowing as well.<br /><br />He kind of slides forward on his butt with his legs up while his back is still hanging back.<br /><br />A lot of that has to do with his habit of not using the straps and then pulling himself forward with his heels.

[[old] Mark Keating]

<!--QuoteBegin-aligilli+Nov 11 2005, 10:23 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(aligilli @ Nov 11 2005, 10:23 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The handle is at his fingertips which is not recommended (puts more stress on the forarms) You should be holding the handle in your hands like you would hold a baby bird. Lightly but make sure your hand is wrapped aound the oar with your wrists in the air so its not jut your fingertips hangin on for dear life like this guy. </td></tr></table><br />My experience has been the exact opposite to this. By hooking the handle with <b>only</b> my fingers I have eliminated the forearm pain I had been experiencing by using a whole-handed grip. I would imagine, however, that rowing OTW would require a stronger grip than what I use.<br /><br />Mark<br />

[[old] PaulS]

I'm pretty sure that Paul Smith guy is a "powerless hack", why on earth would you want to compare anything to him? <br /><br />Mel already gave a nice evaluation that could be summed up as "Paul is short and jabby", so I guess we have to just accept things for what they are. <br /><br /><img src='http://www.ps-sport.net/pictures/PaulMelRP.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' /><br /><br />As you can see from the RP graph above, Paul has no power and a short drive, while Mel has executed a lot of power and a long drive.

[[old] John Rupp]

Paul Smith has a steady state????

[[old] Carl Henrik]

The Baby Bird Grip (BBG) vs The Finger Tip Grip (FTG) vs the Cramped Up Grip (CUG) <br /><br />For long distance trials, unless you have very weak fingers there is plenty enough strength in the fingertips to support a stroke without being inefficient. Having the bit of an extra stretchmovement of the fingers will probably prolongue time until the hands are fatigued because of allowing more blood to flow through. A set back with the FTG on the erg I think is that it might slightly lower your anaerobic delivery. For 6k+ distances this is no problem though. The FTG gives you a slightly longer stroke as well which means efficiency. The FTG assures you don't find yourself doing the CUG suddenly. The FTG may make you slightly less "solid" at catching the flywheel which means inefficiency. <br /><br />My view in total (for now at least):<br />Throwing in some strokes with FTG is nothing wrong with on the erg, if the occasion is right.

[[old] John Rupp]

<img src='http://images.bt2.metropol.dk/272/27204 ... _large.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' /><br /><br />Den dobbelte OL-guldvinder Eskild Ebbesen træner i Dyrehaven til sit livs første maratonløb, The Great Wall Marathon, på den kinesiske mur. Foto: Peter Clausen<br /><br /><a href='http://www.bt.dk/sport/andensport/artik ... 040:img=0/' target='_blank'>http://www.bt.dk/sport/andensport/artik ... :img=0/</a>

[[old] John Rupp]

<img src='http://www.concept2.com/media/eskild200.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />

[[old] Carl Henrik]

Since John has brung Eskild to topic I checked the results of this marathon. It is a much more demanding marathon than normal ones and has great views. It is Eskilds debute marathon. <br /><br />214 males finishing the race<br />Best time: 3:25:05<br />Eskild: 16th place 04:10:52 <br /><br />On the same site as the running pic there is a danish article in which Eskild is quoted to have said he will do some running, cycling, triathlons and duathlons now that he has left competitive rowing. (Danish and swedish are alike). <br /><br />Perhaps he can go over to the UK and give Dan Staite a run for his money in the rowathlon...

[[old] PaulS]

<!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+Nov 12 2005, 08:49 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Nov 12 2005, 08:49 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Paul Smith has a steady state????  <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Of course, at that time it would have been just a bit faster than what you have ever managed for a 2k pace. In other words, "pretty slow". <br /><br />Funny side note: Today I renewed my Drivers License and the clerk adjusted my weight to "135lbs", so I was "officially documented as Lightweight" for at least a few moments.

[[old] PaulS]

<!--QuoteBegin-aligilli+Nov 11 2005, 07:23 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(aligilli @ Nov 11 2005, 07:23 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->First, thanks to those who posted this link: <a href='http://www.invernessrowingclub.co.uk/catchpos.html' target='_blank'>http://www.invernessrowingclub.co.uk/ca ... tml</a><br /><br />I had sent the link to a friend whos an experienced rower and he gave the following critique of the 2 guys on the erg, "ME!!" and "Paul Smith". This is nothing personal. Let me know if my friends critque of those two guys are correct. <br /> <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />First then: "Thanks Neil!" <br /><br />aligilli, <br /><br />Neil ("Me!!") and I (Paul Smith) are actually aquaintences. Who is this "experienced rower" friend of yours, do I know them? Here are some relevant RP Force profiles that may shed a bit of light on your friends analysis.<br /><br /><img src='http://www.ps-sport.net/pictures/neilpaulss.gif' border='0' alt='user posted image' /><br /><br />Steady State for Neil (red) and Paul (blue), so it's easy to see how Paul could be seen as having a difficult time establishing force early in the drive. <br /><br />Now for an example of both Neil (red) and Paul (Blue) "busting their hump" at max effort. Once again the obvious is, well, "obvious". <br /><br /><img src='http://www.ps-sport.net/pictures/neilpaulmax.gif' border='0' alt='user posted image' /><br />

[[old] John Rupp]

Paul,<br /><br />Your steady state is certainly not faster than my 2k pace.<br /><br />I would say my steady state is somewhere slower than my pace for a marathon.<br /><br />When I ran sub 6 minutes a mile pace for the marathon, my steady state was around 7:10 or so for 100 miles a week, not including repetitions and pace runs. Based on that, my rowing steady state would be somewhat slower than my marathon pace on the erg, i.e. 2:07 +20% or so. I do most of my rowing at a 2:24 pace which is around 47% of my heart rate reserve.<br /><br />Since your half marathon pace is slower than mine, your marathon and most definitely your steady state are probably MUCH slower than mine. <br /><br />Again though, I question that you even HAVE a steady state, i.e. is there any pace at which your heart rate doesn't keep going up higher? <br /><br />There probably is but, if so, it's not very "fast".

[[old] John Rupp]

My heart rate does seem to go much lower at sub max paces on the erg than it does with running.<br /><br />Maybe this is due to the more supline position on the erg.<br /><br />However sub max efforts for pace are very similar, meaning percentage of marathon pace as compared to 5k and 10 etc.<br /><br />Thus for a given sub max EFFORT, my heart rate is going to be lower on the erg than with running, as it probably is with most others as well.

[[old] PaulS]

<!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+Nov 12 2005, 04:08 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Nov 12 2005, 04:08 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Paul,<br /><br />Your steady state is certainly not faster than my 2k pace.<br /><br />I would say my steady state is somewhere slower than my pace for a marathon.<br /><br />When I ran sub 6 minutes a mile pace for the marathon, my steady state was around 7:10 or so for 100 miles a week, not including repetitions and pace runs.  Based on that, my rowing steady state would be somewhat slower than my marathon pace on the erg, i.e. 2:07 +20% or so.  I do most of my rowing at a 2:24 pace which is around 47% of my heart rate reserve.<br /><br />Since your half marathon pace is slower than mine, your marathon and most definitely your steady state are probably MUCH slower than mine.  <br /><br />Again though, I question that you even HAVE a steady state, i.e. is there any pace at which your heart rate doesn't keep going up higher?  <br /><br />There probably is but, if so, it's not very "fast".  <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br /><br />John,<br />You list your 2k as 7:24 (1:51 Pace), "Steady state" is the term I use for my "recovery day" 8k Pace, at the time of those Force plots (perhaps July 2003), that was 1:52, with the "hard day" 8k resulting in a 1:48.4 Avg pace. So okay, I'll admit, it's my 8k that's been a faster pace than your 2k, good enough?<br /><br />The only time I do not have an increase in HR is when it has reached max and just won't go any higher, I've never had this happen on a "recovery day", as I always use steady Paces on them.<br /><br />We're not talking about running, so what are you bringing that up for? And as for your Half Marathon being faster than mine, fantastic! I've done it once, with only a very easy effort, and don't intend to do it again, it's not really my thing.<br /><br />If you want to start up another round of "johnnyball", it's always fun, so just let me know.<br /><br />"Batter up!"