Question For Xeno

[old] Mel Harbour · Post by **[old] Mel Harbour** » November 18th, 2005, 10:46 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Nov 18 2005, 09:14 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>I know you wouldn't, but that's fine. Perhaps I should have said that the proximal phalanges should be at 45deg on the drive. I can't imagine them being perpendicular to the water, as you seem to be describing, for a couple reasons. Grip would have to be tight and forthe same reason that you don't have your wrist up when accelerating on a motorcycle the tendency would be for it to get pulled down and that can lead to "bad things" in both cases.<br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />It's a slight mis-nomer. Like I said, they don't <i>actually</i> wind up being perpendicular to the water. The idea is to get the feeling though. If you let the handles too far out into the fingers during the drive, you reduce the capacity for the hands to draw up on the handles towards the end of the stroke.<br /><br /><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>I'd say somewhat different. Really really emphasise the separation of the motions of 'tapping down', 'feathering' and then the hands moving away. It's all too common that people don't send the boat off the finish, as they're feathering the blade out. </td></tr></table><br />Perhaps you should describe what "sending the boat" at the finish is, because you didn't really add anything to what I was saying, in spite of "saying it differently.<br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Well, you were effectively encouraging people to try and blend the three actions, whereas I think people need to work to separate them out. If they feel for it, the required level of blending will usually follow pretty easily. It's the same as the old 'hands-body-slide'. It's rare not to see a crew that needs to emphasise it more, whatever the level.<br /><br /><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><br /><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Finally, if you are uncomfortable relaxing the hand during the recovery, go ahead and keep the fingers wrapped around the handle and use only 1/2 feather, the blade at 45deg instead of parallel with the water.<br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />I wouldn't say that at all. If your hands are that tense that you can't feather, you need to do some work to get comfortable in your boat. There are lots of exercises to get you more comfortable with having a relaxed grip on the handles - ask if you're not sure.<br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Maybe you should just read that last bit again, it had nothing to do with <br /> "If your hands are that tense", or for that matter keeping your hands tense, I can do that drill with the same relaxed grip as a regular feather, but for some it helps them to feel more comfortable, which you go on to say is would be a good thing, DOH! <br /><br />Please do describe some of the comfort building exercises.<br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Well to me, 'uncomfortable' and 'relaxing' are opposites. So when you say that a person is 'uncomfortable relaxing their hands', what you mean is that they don't have a sufficient level of confidence to relax. If you want people to row fast in all conditions, then a 45 degree feather isn't really going to cut it. In rough conditions, it's going to slow them down. And why practise a technique only to have to use a different one when you are in tricky conditions - surely that's the worst time to be having to do something different!<br /><br />As far as confidence/relaxation exercises go, here's a few (mostly with the boat stationary):<br /><br />1. Circle the handles round each other as fast as you can.<br /><br />2. Rock the boat from side to side as far and fast as possible - try and dip the riggers under the water. Do this standing up in the boat as well.<br /><br />3. Slap the water at the finish with your blades alternately.<br /><br />4. Balance the boat with one blade only and put the other hand on your head.<br /><br />etc etc etc<br /><br />Mel

[old] Mark Keating · Post by **[old] Mark Keating** » November 18th, 2005, 11:15 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Xeno @ Nov 16 2005, 01:09 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Too many people use the hip flexors, and that is the foundation to back strain. <br /> </td></tr></table><br />I am one of these - both my hip flexors (especially the left one) and back have caused me more pain than I like.<br /><br />What do I to shift the load from the flexors to the hamstrings?<br /><br />Mark

[old] PaulS · Post by **[old] PaulS** » November 18th, 2005, 11:48 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Mel Harbour @ Nov 18 2005, 06:46 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>It's a slight mis-nomer. Like I said, they don't <i>actually</i> wind up being perpendicular to the water. The idea is to get the feeling though. If you let the handles too far out into the fingers during the drive, you reduce the capacity for the hands to draw up on the handles towards the end of the stroke.<br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Why would they be drawing up? And saying what you mean is better than trying to be Yoda. <br /><br /><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Well, you were effectively encouraging people to try and blend the three actions, whereas I think people need to work to separate them out. If they feel for it, the required level of blending will usually follow pretty easily. It's the same as the old 'hands-body-slide'. It's rare not to see a crew that needs to emphasise it more, whatever the level. </td></tr></table><br /><br />Apparently you didn't read and observe the individual quotes around "Down" 'Feather" "Away" with eventually "downfeatheraway" as what will be the eventual goal. i.e. "blending will usually follow pretty easily" Please stop trying so hard to misunderstand, it will save typing time for both of us. <br /><br /><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Well to me, 'uncomfortable' and 'relaxing' are opposites. So when you say that a person is 'uncomfortable relaxing their hands', what you mean is that they don't have a sufficient level of confidence to relax. If you want people to row fast in all conditions, then a 45 degree feather isn't really going to cut it. In rough conditions, it's going to slow them down. And why practise a technique only to have to use a different one when you are in tricky conditions - surely that's the worst time to be having to do something different! </td></tr></table><br /><br />We are speaking the same language aren't we? Are you serious that you can not understand the statement "uncomfortable relaxing their hands"? (I suppose I could have said 'if you become uncomfortable when atttempting to relax your hands', but more words != better, in most cases.) I'm also not suggesting they adopt that as a permantent mode of rowing any more than you are suggesting that they sit and execute the drills below and never ever actually move the boat. But perhaps that is what you are suggesting since it is the way you interpret what I said. <br /><br /><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>As far as confidence/relaxation exercises go, here's a few (mostly with the boat stationary):<br /><br />1. Circle the handles round each other as fast as you can.<br /><br />2. Rock the boat from side to side as far and fast as possible - try and dip the riggers under the water. Do this standing up in the boat as well.<br /><br />3. Slap the water at the finish with your blades alternately.<br /><br />4. Balance the boat with one blade only and put the other hand on your head.<br /><br />etc etc etc<br /><br />Mel <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Thanks, sounds like a lot of fun, on a warm sunny day. Do they have those in the UK?

[old] Mel Harbour · Post by **[old] Mel Harbour** » November 18th, 2005, 12:15 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Nov 18 2005, 10:48 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Mel Harbour @ Nov 18 2005, 06:46 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>It's a slight mis-nomer. Like I said, they don't <i>actually</i> wind up being perpendicular to the water. The idea is to get the feeling though. If you let the handles too far out into the fingers during the drive, you reduce the capacity for the hands to draw up on the handles towards the end of the stroke.<br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Why would they be drawing up? And saying what you mean is better than trying to be Yoda. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />To prevent the blades from washing out. You want a mental image of pushing the puddles towards the bottom of the river as you come towards the finish of the drive. You seriously telling me you've never heard of being told to draw up at the end of the drive before?! <br /><br /><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Well, you were effectively encouraging people to try and blend the three actions, whereas I think people need to work to separate them out. If they feel for it, the required level of blending will usually follow pretty easily. It's the same as the old 'hands-body-slide'. It's rare not to see a crew that needs to emphasise it more, whatever the level. </td></tr></table><br /><br />Apparently you didn't read and observe the individual quotes around "Down" 'Feather" "Away" with eventually "downfeatheraway" as what will be the eventual goal. i.e. "blending will usually follow pretty easily" Please stop trying so hard to misunderstand, it will save typing time for both of us.<br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />You've changed what you're saying slightly. When you started you were saying that to think of it as 'Down', 'Feather' then 'Away' wasn't what you wanted. <br /><br /><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Well to me, 'uncomfortable' and 'relaxing' are opposites. So when you say that a person is 'uncomfortable relaxing their hands', what you mean is that they don't have a sufficient level of confidence to relax. If you want people to row fast in all conditions, then a 45 degree feather isn't really going to cut it. In rough conditions, it's going to slow them down. And why practise a technique only to have to use a different one when you are in tricky conditions - surely that's the worst time to be having to do something different! </td></tr></table><br /><br />We are speaking the same language aren't we? Are you serious that you can not understand the statement "uncomfortable relaxing their hands"?<br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Yep.<br /><br /><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>(I suppose I could have said 'if you become uncomfortable when atttempting to relax your hands', but more words != better, in most cases.) I'm also not suggesting they adopt that as a permantent mode of rowing any more than you are suggesting that they sit and execute the drills below and never ever actually move the boat. But perhaps that is what you are suggesting since it is the way you interpret what I said. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />To be honest, if you feel that uncomfortable that you don't want to feather the whole way, you'd be best off sticking to the confidence work below until you have the freedom to manipulate the handles as you want.<br /><br />Mel

[old] PaulS · Post by **[old] PaulS** » November 18th, 2005, 12:36 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Mel Harbour @ Nov 18 2005, 08:15 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Nov 18 2005, 10:48 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Mel Harbour @ Nov 18 2005, 06:46 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>It's a slight mis-nomer. Like I said, they don't <i>actually</i> wind up being perpendicular to the water. The idea is to get the feeling though. If you let the handles too far out into the fingers during the drive, you reduce the capacity for the hands to draw up on the handles towards the end of the stroke.<br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Why would they be drawing up? And saying what you mean is better than trying to be Yoda. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />To prevent the blades from washing out. You want a mental image of pushing the puddles towards the bottom of the river as you come towards the finish of the drive. You seriously telling me you've never heard of being told to draw up at the end of the drive before?! <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />"Draw level" seems to works just fine. I might say to someone that is washing out that they will probably feel as if they are drawing up when drawing level, but telling them to draw up usually gets just a blade that is too deep and then they can't release and now they are more scared than ever and go back to rowing out.<br /><br /><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Well, you were effectively encouraging people to try and blend the three actions, whereas I think people need to work to separate them out. If they feel for it, the required level of blending will usually follow pretty easily. It's the same as the old 'hands-body-slide'. It's rare not to see a crew that needs to emphasise it more, whatever the level. </td></tr></table><br /><br />Apparently you didn't read and observe the individual quotes around "Down" 'Feather" "Away" with eventually "downfeatheraway" as what will be the eventual goal. i.e. "blending will usually follow pretty easily" Please stop trying so hard to misunderstand, it will save typing time for both of us.<br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />You've changed what you're saying slightly. When you started you were saying that to think of it as 'Down', 'Feather' then 'Away' wasn't what you wanted. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Well here is exactly what I said "My goal at the release is to get the blade out of the water quickly and cleanly, and while we like to talk in terms of "Down" "Feather" "Away" with regard to the hands, it's much more like "downfeatheraway" in practice." <br /><br />Where exactly did I say "'Down', 'Feather' then 'Away' wasn't what you wanted"?<br /><br /><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Well to me, 'uncomfortable' and 'relaxing' are opposites. So when you say that a person is 'uncomfortable relaxing their hands', what you mean is that they don't have a sufficient level of confidence to relax. If you want people to row fast in all conditions, then a 45 degree feather isn't really going to cut it. In rough conditions, it's going to slow them down. And why practise a technique only to have to use a different one when you are in tricky conditions - surely that's the worst time to be having to do something different! </td></tr></table><br /><br />We are speaking the same language aren't we? Are you serious that you can not understand the statement "uncomfortable relaxing their hands"?<br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Yep.<br /><br /><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>(I suppose I could have said 'if you become uncomfortable when atttempting to relax your hands', but more words != better, in most cases.) I'm also not suggesting they adopt that as a permantent mode of rowing any more than you are suggesting that they sit and execute the drills below and never ever actually move the boat. But perhaps that is what you are suggesting since it is the way you interpret what I said. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />To be honest, if you feel that uncomfortable that you don't want to feather the whole way, you'd be best off sticking to the confidence work below until you have the freedom to manipulate the handles as you want.<br /><br />Mel <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />The half feather will allow them to become more comfortable in manipulating the blade any which way they want. I guess the "single subject" focus in the UK University is not panning out all that well. <br /><br />Rowing along alternating one side square the other feathered is also a good drill to gain confidence in blade manipulation. Since you don't seem to understand the difference between drill and real, I'm surprised you suggested a stationary boat at all, as that would NEVER be used while rowing.

[old] Ray79 · Post by **[old] Ray79** » November 18th, 2005, 1:49 pm

Now Now Boys and Girls, lets not let this get out of hand.<br /><br />Just thought of another drill I was shown for helping to find the water at the catch.<br /><br />Its called "Slap &Tickle" (Careful now, dont let your minds run away with you)<br /><br />You have probably done this but all it involves is keeping the blades feathered all the way to the catch. As you recover up the slide as normal and the hands raise slightly towards the catch, as the wheels stop you sharply place the blades to the water and you should here a "Slap" noise. It should be simultanious for both sides in a 1X and the whole crew should be in time if done in a sweep boat. After the "Slap" the blades should be squared into the water and a stroke taken.<br /><br />This is not meant to be a suggestion for "Good rowing technique" more a suggestion as to show rowers how to find the water sharply at the catch without digging the blades in too deeply.

[old] PaulS · Post by **[old] PaulS** » November 18th, 2005, 2:35 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Ray79 @ Nov 18 2005, 09:49 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Now Now Boys and Girls, lets not let this get out of hand.<br /><br />Just thought of another drill I was shown for helping to find the water at the catch.<br /><br />Its called "Slap &Tickle" (Careful now, dont let your minds run away with you)<br /><br />You have probably done this but all it involves is keeping the blades feathered all the way to the catch. As you recover up the slide as normal and the hands raise slightly towards the catch, as the wheels stop you sharply place the blades to the water and you should here a "Slap" noise. It should be simultanious for both sides in a 1X and the whole crew should be in time if done in a sweep boat. After the "Slap" the blades should be squared into the water and a stroke taken.<br /><br />This is not meant to be a suggestion for "Good rowing technique" more a suggestion as to show rowers how to find the water sharply at the catch without digging the blades in too deeply. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br /><br />Interesting drill, Do you just leave the blade on the water "SquareAndDrive", or lower the hands, square, catch and drive quickly?<br /><br />I use one similar where the slap happens as the hands pass the knees (more of a glancing slap), then the blade is rolled up smoothly to squared and planted at the catch. The emphasis is on timing and keeping the handle moving through the recovery, it's amazing how many will stop right there in the middle, SLAP, then continue. About the same thing happens when they hit a wave and it "freaks them out" I guess.<br /><br />Onward with the "Perfect search for the endless stroke".

[old] Ray79 · Post by **[old] Ray79** » November 18th, 2005, 2:46 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Nov 18 2005, 01:35 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Ray79 @ Nov 18 2005, 09:49 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Now Now Boys and Girls, lets not let this get out of hand.<br /><br />Just thought of another drill I was shown for helping to find the water at the catch.<br /><br />Its called "Slap &Tickle" (Careful now, dont let your minds run away with you)<br /><br />You have probably done this but all it involves is keeping the blades feathered all the way to the catch. As you recover up the slide as normal and the hands raise slightly towards the catch, as the wheels stop you sharply place the blades to the water and you should here a "Slap" noise. It should be simultanious for both sides in a 1X and the whole crew should be in time if done in a sweep boat. After the "Slap" the blades should be squared into the water and a stroke taken.<br /><br />This is not meant to be a suggestion for "Good rowing technique" more a suggestion as to show rowers how to find the water sharply at the catch without digging the blades in too deeply. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br /><br />Interesting drill, Do you just leave the blade on the water "SquareAndDrive", or lower the hands, square, catch and drive quickly?<br /><br />I use one similar where the slap happens as the hands pass the knees (more of a glancing slap), then the blade is rolled up smoothly to squared and planted at the catch. The emphasis is on timing and keeping the handle moving through the recovery, it's amazing how many will stop right there in the middle, SLAP, then continue. About the same thing happens when they hit a wave and it "freaks them out" I guess.<br /><br />Onward with the "Perfect search for the endless stroke". <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Usually just slap the water then leave it on the water, square and drive. No real pause in it just slap,square,drive. Done at low rates. I think that it was aimed at helping us to find the water better at the catch by allowing us to see the distance our hands move at the catch before the blade is buried, without having to look out of the boat. Have never done the mid recovery slap exercise, sounds like an interesting one too.

[old] Byron Drachman · Post by **[old] Byron Drachman** » November 18th, 2005, 3:57 pm

I'm enjoying this thread. I wish the forum had a section called Training on Water. It could go between the section called Training and the one called Health and Fitness. I have another question or comment: There have been discussions before on the most desirable force curve. Paul and others say it should be like a gum drop or a left leaning haystack. There was a link to a website where someone pointed out that if you have a more integrated stroke, then the force curve will appear more like that, and that if you have more separation of the three parts of the drive, legs, body swing, then arms, then you end up with a force curve closer to triangular shaped. I looked and couldn't remember or find that website so I can't name the author or authors. <br /><br />I noticed this summer while rowing on the water that my instincts lead me to keep the entire stroke as smooth as I can, and although I am trying to accelerate during the entire drive, I think I am applying the most force during the middle of the stroke, when the oars are closest to being perpendicular to the boat. At the catch and the finish, almost half the component of force applied by the blades is perpendicular to the direction of travel and wasted effort. I only have so much energy during a stroke that I can expend, and it seems to me that it would be best to have as much of that energy used during the time when most of the component of the force is parallel to the boat. In other words, I think my force curve would be more triangular shaped when on the water.<br /><br />On the erg, the work done is given by the area under the force curve if you plot force vs distance traveled, and it shouldn't matter so much what shape the force curve has as long as the area under the curve is the same.<br /><br />I'm interested in comments or corrections. I've picked up a lot of helpful information from Paul, Mel, Xeno, and others. <br /><br />Byron

[old] Mel Harbour · Post by **[old] Mel Harbour** » November 18th, 2005, 5:09 pm

Don't let's go off on a tangent of blade hydrodynamics, but suffice to say that your blade is nearly at its <i>most</i> efficient at the catch, not the least.<br /><br />As far as slaps go, yes, you should keep the blades on the water. Furthermore, you should slap them onto the water, then actively push the handles upwards, so that you are pressing the blades onto the surface of the water, then square and go. The press phase is quite important for training the muscle memory of where the water's surface is. And there's no hurry to get the squaring and 'going' done. Take your time and make sure you're connected before you leave frontstops.<br /><br />Mel

[old] PaulS · Post by **[old] PaulS** » November 18th, 2005, 5:38 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Mel Harbour @ Nov 18 2005, 01:09 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Don't let's go off on a tangent of blade hydrodynamics, but suffice to say that your blade is nearly at its <i>most</i> efficient at the catch, not the least.<br /><br />Mel <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />That's already happening elsewhere, surely you will wade in.

[old] Byron Drachman · Post by **[old] Byron Drachman** » November 18th, 2005, 5:42 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Don't let's go off on a tangent of blade hydrodynamics, but suffice to say that your blade is nearly at its most efficient at the catch, not the least. </td></tr></table> <br /><br />Well I guess that explains the statement from <br />The Mechanics and<br />Biomechanics of Rowing<br />by C J F P Jones & C J N Miller<br />University of Newcastle <table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> The current teaching is that the most effective use of the rower's strength is in the early dive phase of the stroke, before the oar reaches the orthogonal position. </td></tr></table> <br /><br />I am having a hard time reconciling this with figure 10.5, page 118 in the book Rowing Faster, edited by Volker Nolte, showing that the transverse force is larger than the propulsive force with the oar in that position. <br /><br />Off on a tangent? Well, it's at least about blades.<br /><br />Byron

[old] PaulS · Post by **[old] PaulS** » November 18th, 2005, 5:58 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Byron Drachman @ Nov 18 2005, 01:42 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>I am having a hard time reconciling this with figure 10.5, page 118 in the book Rowing Faster, edited by Volker Nolte, showing that the transverse force is larger than the propulsive force with the oar in that position. <br /><br />Off on a tangent? Well, it's at least about blades.<br /><br />Byron <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />That's easy. He's not relating it to a moving boat. The Graph on pg 119 is pretty nice, though not having a "double hump" is even better.<br /><br />Then turn back to pg 115 to see the phases of blade slip.<br /><br />There are several things in Rowing Faster that are not quite right, i.e. somewhere it says 'most propulsion at 90deg position'. And while I agree that this can be an effective angle to work from it must be set up well in advance to be used well. If you wait until then to really give the old "heave ho" on the handle it's way too late. The best you can hope for (regarding force) during that travel through the 80-100deg range is maintaining the force already established by counteracting the slip. I'd suggest that you really do not even want to quite do that since it will ruin the potential for a good connection for the finish.

[old] Slow Boat · Post by **[old] Slow Boat** » November 18th, 2005, 6:06 pm

So to rotate the sculls:<br /><br />Do you twist them with your wrist...<br /><br />or<br /><br />Rotate them onto the feather by opening your grip and then squaring them by closing your grip (keeping your wrists straight)?<br /><br /><br />Thanks for helping the newbie.

[old] Byron Drachman · Post by **[old] Byron Drachman** » November 18th, 2005, 7:07 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>The Graph on pg 119 is pretty nice, though not having a "double hump" is even better. </td></tr></table> <br />Hi Paul,<br /><br />Thanks for the response. That's consistent with a left leaning haystack. <br /><br />Back to blade drills. I also do the "Casper drill" sometimes: with hands barely touching the oars I let them drop down into the water, and let the motion of the boat make the oars go through the drive part of the stroke, again just barely holding onto the oars. That's supposed to show you approximately the right height for the handles during the drive, and I found it helpful, being a newbie to on-the-water rowing. <br /><br />Byron