Heart Rate Zones

[Dangerscouse]

As I understand it base building is more about building mitochondria and capilliaries than clearing lactate.

That is what I have always thought it was too.

Increasing mitochondrial density is a principal benefit of doing more volume at lower intensities, but so is clearing lactate. Working for two hours at low UT2 for a rower, or a long 5-6 hour ride for a cyclist, both help improve removal and re-uptake through the Krebs cycle more efficient. There's not much lactate to clear, and no need to convert it quickly into ATP, but there is still *some* lactate production, so the cells are getting a lot of low-demand "practice" at clearing, which pays off down the road (months, years).

Inigo San Millan would be your guy to look up on the need to lots of steady aerobic work to improve lactate clearance, and about how all intensity levels play a role in developing this. Also Jan Olbrecht. Different sports for them, but they both emphasized that the ability to clear lactate, and the ability to generate a lot of it quickly, are foundational for endurance performance (so a lot of slow stuff, and some maximal stuff under a minute (say just :30-:40) during the base periods, and you're working on those.

Interesting, thanks for this. As I hardly ever really suffer from lactate, during or after a really hard session, could this be due to my lactate clearing efficiency being built up?

[flatbread]

Interesting, thanks for this. As I hardly ever really suffer from lactate, during or after a really hard session, could this be due to my lactate clearing efficiency being built up?

If you have a lot of years of low intensity behind you, most likely yes. You'd need to go do a ramp test on the erg and get the finger pricks to see your lactate curve (not worth the trouble).

This is a gross oversimplification, but the more slow stuff you have behind you, and the more fast stuff (TR and AN) you have behind you, the better your clearance. UT1 and TH are middle steps -- essential middle steps, but going kind of hard all the time doesn't tend to have the same effect on shifting the lactate curve as does "do a lot of slow, a little of really fast, and not much in between."

[nick rockliff]

Interesting, thanks for this. As I hardly ever really suffer from lactate, during or after a really hard session, could this be due to my lactate clearing efficiency being built up?

You'd need to go do a ramp test on the erg and get the finger pricks to see your lactate curve (not worth the trouble).

Blood lactate profile step test is well worth the trouble if you want to find out your true HR zones. Combine it with a VO2MAX final step, it will also give you your true Max HR. Once you have this information you can start HR training with confidence.

I would recommend doing it but only if you are doing high volumes, if only doing 3 or 4 sessions a week, don't bother.

[flatbread]

Blood lactate profile step test is well worth the trouble if you want to find out your true HR zones. Combine it with a VO2MAX final step, it will also give you your true Max HR. Once you have this information you can start HR training with confidence.

I would recommend doing it but only if you are doing high volumes, if only doing 3 or 4 sessions a week, don't bother.

If you can do it a couple of times a year, and you have the same person in the same lab doing it, sure. But the lactate curve and step-test-based zones both shift around during the season, and can change from season to season as your fitness changes. I had a bunch of those things during my 20s.

Even if you're elite or sub-elite, looking at the interaction of "talk test," PE, power, and HR can tell you about as much as step tests. The hard part is to listen to what your body is saying and not let your chimp sucker you into doing the easy too hard, not taking enough rest, etc..

[iain]

As I hardly ever really suffer from lactate, during or after a really hard session, could this be due to my lactate clearing efficiency being built up?

You probably also have less fast twitch fibres and have converted most of the type 2 to run aerobically and have built a significant amount of mitochondria in them, so produce less lactate to start with! Despite being slow, I was historically relatively better at shorter distances and so come from the other perspective of producing more than usual lactate at high intensity.

[Dangerscouse]

You probably also have less fast twitch fibres and have converted most of the type 2 to run aerobically and have built a significant amount of mitochondria in them, so produce less lactate to start with! Despite being slow, I was historically relatively better at shorter distances and so come from the other perspective of producing more than usual lactate at high intensity.

That makes sense. I've never been very fast, and I get gassed doing sprints more than have intolerable lactic

[nick rockliff]

Blood lactate profile step test is well worth the trouble if you want to find out your true HR zones. Combine it with a VO2MAX final step, it will also give you your true Max HR. Once you have this information you can start HR training with confidence.

I would recommend doing it but only if you are doing high volumes, if only doing 3 or 4 sessions a week, don't bother.

The hard part is to listen to what your body is saying and not let your chimp sucker you into doing the easy too hard, not taking enough rest, etc..

There is the other side of the coin though. If you have the correct HR zones determined by Blood Lactate Profile tests, you will know if you're doing the easy TOO easy and achieving not a lot.

[Tobias Stoehr]

You probably also have less fast twitch fibres and have converted most of the type 2 to run aerobically and have built a significant amount of mitochondria in them, so produce less lactate to start with! Despite being slow, I was historically relatively better at shorter distances and so come from the other perspective of producing more than usual lactate at high intensity.

That makes sense. I've never been very fast, and I get gassed doing sprints more than have intolerable lactic

Hard breathing doesn’t stop your muscles from working, doesn’t it? There’s a world of pain waiting for you beyond the max breathing

[hjs]

As I hardly ever really suffer from lactate, during or after a really hard session, could this be due to my lactate clearing efficiency being built up?

You probably also have less fast twitch fibres and have converted most of the type 2 to run aerobically and have built a significant amount of mitochondria in them, so produce less lactate to start with! Despite being slow, I was historically relatively better at shorter distances and so come from the other perspective of producing more than usual lactate at high intensity.

Sprinters are born, training is all nice and well, but change in muscle fiber is only minor, a true sprinter will always have that raw speed nearby and a anti sprinter will never have that kick. Look at cycling, running, you need to drop the sprinter to win.

[Dangerscouse]

Hard breathing doesn’t stop your muscles from working, doesn’t it? There’s a world of pain waiting for you beyond the max breathing

Hahaha, it's more like a feeling of suffocating than just hard breathing, but it might be fair to say I just need the courage to battle through and suffer from the lactic build up

[Tobias Stoehr]

Hard breathing doesn’t stop your muscles from working, doesn’t it? There’s a world of pain waiting for you beyond the max breathing

Hahaha, it's more like a feeling of suffocating than just hard breathing, but it might be fair to say I just need the courage to battle through and suffer from the lactic build up

I reckon your blood lactate at such a point is quite high already. What makes you think you don’t experience lactic? At 10k pace your lactate levels will be elevated. On anything harder than 5k/6k pace there’s substantial buildup.

On something like flat out 1min sprints with long rests (I.e. at least 3min) you’ll experience the extreme lactate levels.

[Dangerscouse]

I reckon your blood lactate at such a point is quite high already. What makes you think you don’t experience lactic? At 10k pace your lactate levels will be elevated. On anything harder than 5k/6k pace there’s substantial buildup.

On something like flat out 1min sprints with long rests (I.e. at least 3min) you’ll experience the extreme lactate levels.

It probably is quite high, but I rarely get that unbearable burning feeling in my legs. They feel worked, but rarely exhausted and / or painful.

As I haven't ever done one min sprints, with long rests, it might be due to the type of sessions I do. I seem to remember a fly & die 2k at the English Champs in 2018 was definitely lactic hell

[hjs]

I reckon your blood lactate at such a point is quite high already. What makes you think you don’t experience lactic? At 10k pace your lactate levels will be elevated. On anything harder than 5k/6k pace there’s substantial buildup.

On something like flat out 1min sprints with long rests (I.e. at least 3min) you’ll experience the extreme lactate levels.

It probably is quite high, but I rarely get that unbearable burning feeling in my legs. They feel worked, but rarely exhausted and / or painful.

As I haven't ever done one min sprints, with long rests, it might be due to the type of sessions I do. I seem to remember a fly & die 2k at the English Champs in 2018 was definitely lactic hell

Yes, “we” think about lactate when doing flat out ish sprints. Those that completely block the system, but on hard middle distance work there is plenty of lactate, only also cleared. The feeling is different.
Also, people with higher fast fibers % muscle are able to produce more and faster. In 45/60 seconds to full faillier

[Tobias Stoehr]

I reckon your blood lactate at such a point is quite high already. What makes you think you don’t experience lactic? At 10k pace your lactate levels will be elevated. On anything harder than 5k/6k pace there’s substantial buildup.

On something like flat out 1min sprints with long rests (I.e. at least 3min) you’ll experience the extreme lactate levels.

It probably is quite high, but I rarely get that unbearable burning feeling in my legs. They feel worked, but rarely exhausted and / or painful.

As I haven't ever done one min sprints, with long rests, it might be due to the type of sessions I do. I seem to remember a fly & die 2k at the English Champs in 2018 was definitely lactic hell

That unbearable local muscle burn is something you get easily in cycling where local muscular endurance is the bottleneck. In rowing the total o2 supply is the bottleneck, not local muscular endurance. The muscular lactate sensation in rowing happens only in extreme sessions with repeated somewhat sustained anaerobic efforts.

[Maldini3]

I am currently doing some sessions of 45 min or 60 min at around 80%, with some short peaks at 90-91% of my max HR.
Do you think it is useful to improve my stamina or should I aim for lower figures?