"low Pull"

[old] remador · Post by **[old] remador** » November 6th, 2005, 2:55 pm

Linear, in the sense that, as you've allready stated, it is a matter of lifting/not lifting, so, you can, in certain limits, expect to increase the load neglecting other issues when it comes to translate weight to strength measures. You can assume there is a direct relation between weight lifted and strength. In squatting, it is allways hard to say if you are going stronger or if you are getting your legs less engaged. As you said:<br /><br /><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Performance is more measurable making it easier to measure progress and therefore also to progress. </td></tr></table><br /><br />AM

[old] Carl Henrik · Post by **[old] Carl Henrik** » November 6th, 2005, 3:07 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(remador @ Nov 6 2005, 06:55 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Linear, in the sense that, as you've allready stated, it is a matter of lifting/not lifting, so, you can, in certain limits, expect to increase the load linearly neglecting other issues. You can assume there is a direct relation between weight lifted and strength. In squatting, it is allways hard to say if you are going stronger or if you are getting your legs less engaged. As you said:<br /><br /><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Performance is more measurable making it easier to measure progress and therefore also to progress. </td></tr></table><br /><br />AM <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Ok I think I understand what you mean I agree.

[old] PaulS · Post by **[old] PaulS** » November 6th, 2005, 4:58 pm

Borrowed from a similar discussion regarding straining too much doing squats.<br /><br />"This has scarred me for life. Winter training and I'm thinking twice<br />about the (*gulp*) heavy squats this season.<br /><br />You've heard of "the bottom falling out of your world"? This is "the<br />world falling out of your bottom"... " - rowdoc<br /><br />Consider yourself warned! <br /><br />"The rather shocking photo attached snapped in November 16th of last year by a spectator at the collegiate power lifting championships at Penn State. The unfortunate competitor, who expressed a plea to remain anonymous, remembered to surgeons that he was " stuck" at the bottom of a personal best attempt in the squat lift when he "sort of pulled his stomach in and pushed extra hard, at the same time as trying to complete the lift." Surgeons described the trauma as an explosive and aggravated prolapse of the bowel"<br /><br /><span style='color:red'><span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>REMOVED - It was a fake - REMOVED</span></span><br /><br />Now, why on earth would someone fake something like that?

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » November 6th, 2005, 5:21 pm

Paul,<br /><br />Thanks for the graphic pictorial of how dangerous squats can be.<br /><br />Deadlifts are indeed much safer than squats.

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » November 6th, 2005, 5:30 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Carl Henrik @ Nov 6 2005, 09:50 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>On the other hand, competitive squatters uses those hard outfits and knee wraps that add 30kg (?) to performance, the same goes with deadlifts. </td></tr></table><br />Yes, power lifters use those things but not Olympic Lifters.<br /><br /><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Deadlifts, however, are binary. Either you get the bar up or you don't. </td></tr></table><br />Carl,<br /><br />What is your opinion about the deadlift compared to squats? For example, full squats have the full range of the legs, from the bottom of the movement to the top. However, deadlifts are primarily the top of the range. Considering developing leg strength for rowing, do you feel this top range from deadlifts is of as great sufficiency for rowing as the full range from squats?

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » November 6th, 2005, 5:40 pm

I often cringe at the full squats we used to do.<br /><br />We were supposed to have two spotters but often had just one. <br /><br />It is a very dangerous exercise. I won't ever do them again and don't recommend them to anyone.<br /><br />Leg presses or deadlifts are much safer.

[old] Carl Henrik · Post by **[old] Carl Henrik** » November 6th, 2005, 6:09 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Nov 6 2005, 09:30 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Carl,<br /><br />What is your opinion about the deadlift compared to squats? For example, full squats have the full range of the legs, from the bottom of the movement to the top. However, deadlifts are primarily the top of the range. Considering developing leg strength for rowing, do you feel this top range from deadlifts is of as great sufficiency for rowing as the full range from squats? <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />I think squats are better for leg strength development for rowing. Dead lifts puts more emphasis on hamstrings (and maybe trapezius) than I feel is needed in rowing, while pehaps not enough on the quads. The deadlift will give better over all strength in grip, arms, shoulders upper and lower back. If you want to push yourself towards you potential and just be ok in one excercise, then I think squatting should be the one you focus on if you want to be a lightweight rower. But there is probably individuals built so that they could gain more from deadlifts also. ...Having seen the graphical consequence of squatting Paul S linked to I'm not sure I can encourage anyone to squat any more

[old] Porkchop · Post by **[old] Porkchop** » November 6th, 2005, 6:13 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Nov 6 2005, 03:58 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Borrowed from a similar discussion regarding straining too much doing squats.<br /><br />"This has scarred me for life. Winter training and I'm thinking twice<br />about the (*gulp*) heavy squats this season.<br /><br />You've heard of "the bottom falling out of your world"? This is "the<br />world falling out of your bottom"... " - rowdoc<br /><br />Consider yourself warned! <br /><br />"The rather shocking photo attached snapped in November 16th of last year by a spectator at the collegiate power lifting championships at Penn State. The unfortunate competitor, who expressed a plea to remain anonymous, remembered to surgeons that he was " stuck" at the bottom of a personal best attempt in the squat lift when he "sort of pulled his stomach in and pushed extra hard, at the same time as trying to complete the lift." Surgeons described the trauma as an explosive and aggravated prolapse of the bowel"<br /><br /><br />Forum Monitors feel free to remove all references to this if needed. <br /> </td></tr></table><br />Paul,<br /><br />You've been had. This photo was exposed as a photo-shopped fake on a number of weightlifting sites a couple years ago. <i>See</i> Snopes Prolapse.

[old] ancho · Post by **[old] ancho** » November 6th, 2005, 6:46 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Porkchop @ Nov 6 2005, 11:13 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>You've been had. This photo was exposed as a photo-shopped fake on a number of weightlifting sites a couple years ago. <i>See</i> Snopes Prolapse<br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Now knowing this, I modestly propose you to edit your posts and delete the link (not really nice to look at, eh? )<br /><br />Anyway: be careful with the squats!

[old] Yoda1 · Post by **[old] Yoda1** » November 6th, 2005, 8:37 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Nov 5 2005, 08:28 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Yoda,<br /><br />I get the concept but not the set up. <br /><br />If you can take a picture I might be able to guide you through to sending or posting it.<br /><br />In any case it sounds a great idea! <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />John,<br /><br />I'll try to take a photo or a couple of them in the next few days. Then I'm going to yell at you to help get it posted.<br /><br />Squats vs Deadlift vs leg press. If one looks at the body position of each of these exercises there can only be one that will work correctly in the tranfer of strength to the ERG. That would be the leg press. There is no question that all of these will develop tremendous strength, but the idea is to match the strengthing exercise as closely to the actual movement of the given sport. In this case the leg press is the only one that even comes close. It doesn't make to much difference which style of leg press--vertical, horizontal, 60 degree, 70 degree, etc. <br /><br />Squats and Deadlifts are great exercises and they work the whole body, but my opinion is that the leg press, particularly the horzontal leg press is the one to go with. <br /><br />Just an old man's opinion, so NO yelling. <br />Yoda<br />

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » November 6th, 2005, 8:56 pm

Thanks, Yoda!<br /><br />No yelling though. <br /><br />

[old] remador · Post by **[old] remador** » November 7th, 2005, 6:35 am

Actually, I think that, despite its risks, squats are better for rowing than leg presses, mainly because they develop back strength. Having a solid back is fundamental for rowing. And, as Dr. Seiler says, squats are supposed to cross strength with balance, "the Mantra of the rower".<br /><br />Nevertheless, rowers shouldn't, maybe, squat like weightlifters: they should put their feet closer, in order to simulate a rowing position. Obviously, this implies a smaller load, but they will provide you with good balance and specific strength.<br /><br />AM

[old] PaulS · Post by **[old] PaulS** » November 7th, 2005, 11:15 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Porkchop @ Nov 6 2005, 02:13 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Paul,<br />You've been had. This photo was exposed as a photo-shopped fake on a number of weightlifting sites a couple years ago. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Thanks PC, <br />I guess that I feel somewhat more comfortable now. <br /><br />After having read the Snopes evaluation, I'm not quite so sure it is a "photo-shopped" fake, seems to be that the information was easily discredited, but not really the photo. Obviously the clothing would have been cut away at a later time, not ripped away while at the competition. And also, in the quest for anonymity, dates and places might well be a thoughtful thing to change.<br /><br />Back to being a bit uneasy about deep squats...

[old] PaulS · Post by **[old] PaulS** » November 7th, 2005, 11:20 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(ancho @ Nov 6 2005, 02:46 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Porkchop @ Nov 6 2005, 11:13 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><br />You've been had. This photo was exposed as a photo-shopped fake on a number of weightlifting sites a couple years ago. <i>See</i> <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Now knowing this, I modestly propose you to edit your posts and delete the link (not really nice to look at, eh? )<br /><br />Anyway: be careful with the squats! <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Good suggestion, now you and PC need to do it too.

[old] Yoda1 · Post by **[old] Yoda1** » November 7th, 2005, 11:29 am

AM,<br /><br />You're right, squats do work the back more than leg press, but unless a person is just going to do one exercise don't you think the leg press, again because of body position, is a better way to go? Why take the chance of injury when a person can do two exercises rather than one? One for legs-leg press, the second for the back-seated low pulls. <br /><br />If a person wishes to do just one exercise, that being the squat, then why not "Barrel Squats"? It would be safer than the traditional squats. The barrel supports the whole upper body so there isn't a problem with ending up with your butt sticking straight up and your chin on your knees. Even squats with a "Buffalo Bar" would be better than the traditional squat.<br /><br />Yoda

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