"low Pull"

[[old] remador]

<!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->While I can accept that Olympic Rowers would produce the Highest isometric forces among rowers, I bet we could come up with some folks that could produce higher isometric forces that would not be useful in a rowing boat. This is why I would favor the Isokinetic measurements gathered during the actual rowing motion. </td></tr></table><br /><br />Yeah, namely because of their (the folks) eventual muscle-fiber type building, and its directly related oxidative capacity - and so, their muscles' ability to produce large strength repeatedly at low contraction speed. And also their eventually small muscular length: greater limbs and longer muscles generate greater average power. <br /><br />Oh, and maybe, in many cases, because you shouldn't take steroids and row, too! <br /><br />But I only mentioned isometric strength measurements because:<br /><br />i) I don't know of any isokinetic study about rowers, and I knew that the peak force in a stroke (difficult leverage, etc.) is usually lower than the measured isometric strength of oarsmen. I'm sure you're aware of the dannish study, mentioned in the uk c2 site, about the dannish rowers who generate until 280 kg (about 2744 Newtons) of force in an isometric testing rowing device, etc. - do you have any data about isokinetic measures (given that the rowing measurements are not <i>exactly</i> isokinetic)?<br /><br />ii) I would like to compare oarsmen data with more "pure" strength sports - more precisely, olympic lifting. Talking only about force - not power - how much isometric force do you think an olympic lifter would need to be able to generate in order to snatch, let's say, 125kg? 1225 Newtons? More? How much more? Some studies I've read say that your maximal strength (isotonic) and your maximal isometrical strength are quite similar. OTOH, the work done to lift the bar probably demands a higher maximal strength than the max. weight lifted could make seem.<br /><br />AM

[[old] John Rupp]

A top Olympic lifter could rip the machine apart.<br /><br />Here's an animation of WR holder Galabin Boevski, showing the low squat position of Olympic weightlifters.<br /><a href='http://www.gewichtheben-zeilsheim.de/images/Boevski.gif' target='_blank'>http://www.gewichtheben-zeilsheim.de/im ... gif</a><br /><br />A photo of Galabin breaking the 69kg (152.8 pound) clean & jerk record with 196.5 kg (432.3 pounds).<br /><a href='http://slam.canoe.ca/2000GamesGallerySe ... ting1.html' target='_blank'>http://slam.canoe.ca/2000GamesGallerySe ... tml</a><br /><br />Notice the powerful thighs.<br /><a href='http://www.smh.com.au/ffxImage/urlpictu ... ting,0.jpg' target='_blank'>http://www.smh.com.au/ffxImage/urlpictu ... g,0.jpg</a>

[[old] Yoda1]

John, <br /><br />I'm assuming that you are responding to my comments about building your own horizontal leg press. I think your missing the point. I think we all agree that to gain the use of strength from lifting for a given sport one must duplicate the same movement as closely as possible. The horizontal leg press does that. And although you've had some pretty good lifts while in college, you don't have that kind of power anymore. Face it, you're an old fart now. Just like me. I've built and used a 2x4 leg press for sometime, now. As a matter of fact it's the third one that I've built. This last one will handle more weight than I can move. And I'm not tearing it apart by using it. And please don't suggest that I can only handle baby pounds. Last time I was on a vertical leg press I could still move 700 pounds. That was about 6 weeks ago.<br /><br />Think about it. It works, it's cheap, and you'll develop the right kind of strength for the ERG.<br /><br />Yoda

[[old] John Rupp]

Yoda,<br /><br />No, I was responding to Remador's post.<br /><br /><!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->ii) I would like to compare oarsmen data with more "pure" strength sports - more precisely, olympic lifting. </td></tr></table><br />My Olympic Lifting was at age 25-26 or so, not in college. While doing the lifting I hadn't run for a few years but was confident of being able to do it any time. One day I went to the track and did a 1/2 mile time trial. I did okay but was disappointed and thought I would have run a lot faster, so I stopped the lifting and went back to running. It look me awhile to get back on track and of course I lost quite a bit of that strength doing marathon training.<br /><br />By horizontal leg press, do you mean like sitting in a chair and pressing the legs forward? How would you build something like that with 2 x 4's? Does the total trainer have a horizontal leg press?<br /><br />I welcome your suggestions, didn't realize that was possible to make out of 2 x 4's and am interested to make one if it is. If you could post a plan or any details, this would be much appreciated.<br /><br />Thanks.

[[old] Yoda1]

John,<br /><br />The leg press I built is very simple. It has a rectangluar base that is about 5' x 2'. The base sits on legs that are 12" tall. There is a seat, that's adjustable foward and backward. Looks like a chair without legs. If you visualize an "L" upside down that is what the arm looks like. The lower part of the "L" or bottom is where the push plate would be. The vertical part of the "L" is the lever with plates being loaded at the end. The pivot point is where the base and the vertical sections meet. So, if you were to draw this it show the seat portion on top of the the rectangluar base neat one end and the upside down "L" in front of it. The bottom of the "L" is closest to the seat. The pivot pins are 3/4" bolts that pass through the pivot point of the "L" and through the 2x4 uprights that support the "L".<br />I hope you can understand what I've written. I don't know how to post a picture or a drawing on the computer. Yoda can do thought transferance but not operate a damn computer.<br /><br />What's really neat about this when it's set up is that because the lever is about 5-1/2 feet long and the push plate arms are only 15" long a 25 pound plate requires about 75 pounds of pressure at the push plate. So, you really don't need a whole lot of weight.<br /><br />If you have questions, just yell. Actually don't yell just put up another post.<br /><br />Yoda

[[old] John Rupp]

Yoda,<br /><br />I get the concept but not the set up. <br /><br />If you can take a picture I might be able to guide you through to sending or posting it.<br /><br />In any case it sounds a great idea!

[[old] remador]

In this link, you may find what is meant to be a predicted max. lift for a given olympic total. You just have to click in the lifter's name and go donwards in the sheet:<br /><br /><a href='http://www.qwa.org/liftstats/bwrankingsgd.asp' target='_blank'>http://www.qwa.org/liftstats/bwrankingsgd.asp</a><br /><br />AFAIC, these guys are pretty strong, but, if the numbers shown are right, then the thing is much less "unhuman" than most of the hyperbolic proses of gym rats seem to suggest.<br /><br />For example, a guy with 69kg who snatches 120 kg and cleans 150 kg should squat (back squat) 194 kg. Well, I know a whole bunch of lighweight rowers (70kg and less) who can squat that. <br /><br />AM

[[old] remador]

I would like to say, in the meanwhile, that my main purpose is to get a really good perspective about the role of strength in rowing, namely, when it comes to training. Although there are several coaches saying that weightlifting is not so good for rowing, I myself have seen many guys doing well and weight-training. Of course this is no definitive data, but that is the main reason why I'm trying to discuss this. I am not quite convinced by the - few - studies I read about this, and talking about low-pulls... we might talk about strength, and how to get it.<br /><br /> <br /><br />AM

[[old] remador]

In my hometown, there is a young lighweight (was 9th in the sub-23 world rowing championships, last year, in a 1X), who weighs about 68 kg, has a brutal VO2 max and every time he sits in a C2 for a 2k he goes sub-6'20'' (don't know what is his pb). We often cross each other in the river. He's a bit skinny, he runs like h***, has an ENORMOUS endurance, blah, blah. Well, he usually squats 8x180 kg as a leg strength routine... is this bad for him?<br /><br /><br />AM

[[old] John Rupp]

<!--QuoteBegin-remador+Nov 6 2005, 02:34 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(remador @ Nov 6 2005, 02:34 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->For example, a guy with 69kg who snatches 120 kg and cleans 150 kg should squat (back squat) 194 kg. Well, I know a whole bunch of lighweight rowers (70kg and less) who can squat that.[right] </td></tr></table><br /><br />Are you talking 1/4 squats or full squats?<br /><br />I did a full squat, grazing my butt to the floor, with 386 pounds (175kg), when could clean & jerk 285 (130kg). And could probably have worked up higher than that as I usually did 5 sets of 5. Surely someone with a 150 kg c&j could do a full squat with much more than that. I could probably have done 1/4 squats with 500 pounds. It was typical for me to take 5-600 pounds from the overhead rack, i.e. in the overhead c&j position and stand up with it, weighing 146 pounds. And I only did this for a year or two.<br /><br />There is no way any rower could squat as much as a comparable olympic class lifter.<br /><br />Not even close.

[[old] John Rupp]

<!--QuoteBegin-remador+Nov 6 2005, 09:13 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(remador @ Nov 6 2005, 09:13 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Well, he usually squats 8x180 kg as a leg strength routine... is this bad for him?[right] </td></tr></table><br />Quite excellent, even if they are 1/4 squats that is very good, compared to what most rowers would do.<br />

[[old] Carl Henrik]

Not knowing anything about the lwt rower you (Remador) talk about but I've heard many gym people saying they can do huge weights squatting. Usually when you see them squat they do have a lot of weight on the bar. And they don't do full squats. Official squat records are full squats. <br /><br />On the other hand, competitive squatters uses those hard outfits and knee wraps that add 30kg (?) to performance, the same goes with deadlifts. <br /><br />Deadlifts, however, are binary. Either you get the bar up or you don't. That's why I have more confidence in a deadlift number from the gym than a squat number. It's also a reason why I like deadlifts. You don't need to worry about if you went too high or too low. Performance is more measurable making it easier to measure progress and therefore also to progress.

[[old] remador]

<!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Quite excellent, even if they are 1/4 squats that is very good, compared to what most rowers would do. </td></tr></table><br /><br />They are full squats, in a powerlifting language - in other words, thighs go parallel to the floor. <br /><br />OTOH, about what rowers do or don't do: I suspect that there is a matter of neuromuscular adaptation to the load, around here. I'll explain with an example. 18 months ago, I came back for rowing. I didn't practiced any sport for 12 years ( ). I started erging, running and sculling (barely, at the beginning). When after 4 months of training I started doing weights, I barely could lift 150 kg in a leg-press machine, so, I loaded it with 140 kg and did 3X15 rep's. A week later, I came back to the lp machine. I kept loading it until I could be near my max. I loaded it with 310 kg and did 14 rep's. There was no more weight around, so I coulnd't go further. <br /><br />Thesis: my muscles had the ability, from my rowing past and my recent rowing training, but they were not used to lift that much weight. It was just a matter of neuromuscular adaptation to the specific effort. No significant changes in muscle toning or volume, or whatever, could have been the cause (one week).<br /><br />I think rowers have far more strength than they tend to show when doing isotonic exercises, mostly when they don't do weight-training in a regular basis. Of course, when you compare them to "professional" lifters, they can only be far away. That's why I asked about isometric measures.<br /><br />AM

[[old] remador]

<!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Deadlifts, however, are binary. Either you get the bar up or you don't. </td></tr></table><br /><br />I agree, Carl. It's a much more linear thing.<br /><br />AM

[[old] Carl Henrik]

<!--QuoteBegin-remador+Nov 6 2005, 06:11 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(remador @ Nov 6 2005, 06:11 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Deadlifts, however, are binary. Either you get the bar up or you don't. </td></tr></table><br /><br />I agree, Carl. It's a much more linear thing.<br /><br />AM <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Sorry, how do you mean "linear"?