"low Pull"

[old] NavigationHazard · Post by **[old] NavigationHazard** » November 3rd, 2005, 12:12 pm

You may be right about GB; I was going by the C2 Ranking list which hasn't been updated.<br /><br />Didn't mean to overlook your stonking 1:14 earlier -- I was just illustrating the point that such world-class full-slide paces over 500m are faster than most people's low pulls for one or two lonely strokes.

[old] PaulS · Post by **[old] PaulS** » November 3rd, 2005, 12:48 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(remador @ Nov 3 2005, 07:13 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>I think it would be interesting to make this kind of comparison mostly with restricted rates. Specially, if these rates were defined in a way that they would be as near as possible to on-water rowing. An international-level oarsman can pull, at the begginning of a race, about 1500-1800 Newtons/m (~153-183 kg) for the first strokes. Do many of the guys who go 1'10'', or so, at xxxxxx spm, have this kind of strength to put out (which, given all the leverage complexity of the rowing stroke, suggests a kind of weightlifter's strength, in isometric conditions)?<br /><br />AM <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />I think that you have nailed down the only way to make this sort of thing useful, of course with all the usual cautionary warnings.<br /><br />What was your source of data for international Oarsmen? I've got a fair bit of data From Valery Kleshnev that would suggest 80kg and 70kg as the Maximal force applied to the oar hande for "Average" Male Scullers and Sweeps respectively. The values that would be considered "Very high" would be more than 94kg and 85kg. These appear to be at sustainable race pace rather than in the first few strokes that you are talking about. C2 tests their oar shafts to about the 183kg you mention (Sweep-412lbs, Sculls-180lbs) which they figure is about twice what would normally be applied even by strong Rowers. I've got a request in for the "Failure point" figures and will update this when I get them.<br /><br />I'd suggest that the international oarsmen that you are talking about are certainly capable of pulling some paces that would be quite amazing, but are not particularly interested in taking the risk.<br /><br />The term you are looking for at the end is isokintetic rather than isometric, as rowers we rarely work against static resistance (less time than even the first complete stroke), we must always first "catch up to the resistance" then provide force in excess of the speed at which that resistance is moving.<br /><br />Another metric that has been useful in the Rowing Biomechanics world is the Average Force appied to the handle during the drive, with 52kg and above being the point at which it would be said to be in the "very high"category.<br /><br />All of these things can of course be very accurately accounted for with ErgMonitor, and I'll stop right there with the rather shameless plug.

[old] PaulS · Post by **[old] PaulS** » November 3rd, 2005, 1:01 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Carl Henrik @ Nov 3 2005, 03:22 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Lowest pull I've seen was by a three (?) years old. He sat on the slide and made a stroke but the recoil of handle had him fly into the monitor which subsequently showed an astonishing 0:50 per 500 m !<br /><br />The little guy then crawled off the floor and up on the erg and did a new stroke. He managed to stay on this time but he must have lost a lot power during the "accident". His next pull was only 8:xx per 500m. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />I've seen this a couple times also, and am guessing that it happens because it is about the shortest stroke possible when the handle hits the guard and compresses the rubber, is driven away by the elasticity of the rubber, and the "stroke" is over nearly instantly (~0.1sec). If the rate could be displayed it would probably be 600+. The other contributory factor would be that no DF had been calculated and the default was being used.<br /><br />Or maybe if you just smack the PM hard enough it just gives whacky readings. <br /><br />There was a funny trick with the old PM1, since it calculated the DF over something like 16 strokes, open all the dampers to get the DF as high as possible for 20 strokes and then close off the airflow to see some very fast pace readings while the old DF is still in place. This is the source of the Indoor Racing rule that says 'you can chose any Drag factor you want, but can not make a change during the race', even though with the DF being recalculated every stroke since the PM2, it wouldn't make any difference.

[old] FrancoisA · Post by **[old] FrancoisA** » November 3rd, 2005, 2:20 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Nov 3 2005, 04:48 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>All of these things can of course be very accurately accounted for with ErgMonitor, and I'll stop right there with the rather shameless plug. <br /> </td></tr></table><br />No reason to be ashamed <br />What would especially useful for L4 session (Wolverine Plan) is that the ErgMonitor displays the number of strokes, the stroke rate to the tenth of a digit and that there is a metronome for stroke rate targets. SPI, meters/stroke, handle force and work to rest ratio are also helpful to determine if real progress is being made.<br />Now, I guess I am going to have to purchase those parts from Radio Shack to connect the PM3 to my computer's sound card. Any plans for a USB connection and heart rate monitoring ?

[old] PaulS · Post by **[old] PaulS** » November 3rd, 2005, 2:52 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(FrancoisA @ Nov 3 2005, 10:20 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Nov 3 2005, 04:48 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>All of these things can of course be very accurately accounted for with ErgMonitor, and I'll stop right there with the rather shameless plug. <br /> </td></tr></table><br />No reason to be ashamed <br />What would especially useful for L4 session (Wolverine Plan) is that the ErgMonitor displays the number of strokes, the stroke rate to the tenth of a digit and that there is a metronome for stroke rate targets. SPI, meters/stroke, handle force and work to rest ratio are also helpful to determine if real progress is being made.<br />Now, I guess I am going to have to purchase those parts from Radio Shack to connect the PM3 to my computer's sound card. Any plans for a USB connection and heart rate monitoring ? <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Your right! That's why it's shame<b>less</b>. <br /><br />Through the USB it would be possible to get the HR, but for now you will just have to rely on the Wrist Monitor. We Don't use the PM3 for anything that ErgMonitor does, we're not just parroting the information from the PM3 as would be done with CSafe programs, the information is generated from the live signal directly from the flywheel, essentially ErgMonitor is completely independent reporting interface that produces all the standard information C2 users are used to, and then a whole bunch more for those that never seem to get enough.

[old] rspenger · Post by **[old] rspenger** » November 3rd, 2005, 5:09 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Nov 3 2005, 09:48 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>What was your source of data for international Oarsmen?<br /> <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Paul,<br /><br />That looks like something that I remember seeing in one of Stephen Seilers' essays. I didn't spot it in my saved items, but I remember seeing the URL for it posted in a recent forum message.<br /><br />regards,<br /><br />Bob S.<br />

[old] lintonwilson · Post by **[old] lintonwilson** » November 3rd, 2005, 5:26 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Xeno @ Nov 3 2005, 02:55 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>CAUTION with what is a low pull or max speed per stroke<br /><br />Don't get injured trying to find out how low you can bring the 500 meter split time or how HIGH you can push the watts.<br /><br />XENO <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />xeno, <br />thanks for the word of caution. had one hemilaminectomy many years ago, not looking to repeat. just erging for the fitness. i am, never the less impressed by the power and endurance many who post here have. <br /><br />dw<br /><br /> <br />

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » November 3rd, 2005, 5:42 pm

I have done the max splits quite a few times over the last few years, and have experimented with high rates, low rates, low drag factors and high ones. My lowest the last couple years is 1:24 pace, which I clicked maybe 10 times or so and was at 42 spm. This is intermediate on the UK list as compared to my 2k, which is pretty good for me considering my abilities are more in the distance events and I am not as fast at sprints. So here are some suggestions from someone who has actually done the max splits before.<br /><br />1) Do your own trials and experiments, and find out what is best for you. Observe how others do the max splits and consider their suggestions. Don't consider any suggestions by anyone who has not even tried them or who would get injured if they did;<br /><br />2) Put the damper up a couple of notches from where you have it for 500 meters, or else put the damper on 10. I put it on 10 for mine. Do not use a low drag factor for max splits as it would more likely result in injuries, in particular if you combined a low drag factor with low stroke rate. <br /><br />3) Use the same meters per stroke as you do for a 2k or 500 meters, or you can use a lower meters per stroke but not a higher one. A higher meters per stroke could, again, result in injuries as you would be putting excessive strain on your wrists and the rest of your body. For example, Graham Benton rows close to 10 mps for a 2k, but is close to 8 mps for the 500 meters and probably less than that for max split;<br /><br />4) Keep up your stroke rate. Do not use a low stroke rate for max splits, as doing so would put too much pressure on your wrists and the rest of your body and would very likely result in injuries. <br /><br />5) You can go for max splits many ways. My method is to set the monitor for 50 meters or else 10 seconds, and 80s rests in between. Thus you are doing them starting each 90s and with full recoveries in between. Then you take the same number of strokes every time, finding the most efficient number of strokes to reach the fastest speed possible.<br /><br />6) Sometimes I have done 6 of these in a row but have found it more effective to do them in two sets, which is usually 2 sets of 5 and about 6 to 10 minutes in between sets. Even though the first set feels as hard as possible, the second set is invariably faster.<br /><br />I did some max splits a few days last week and was surprised to click off a few 1:27's. My fastest last fall were 1:29's so I'm not sure what the difference has been. I've not been doing any weights at all but have been running 2 miles every morning.

[old] PaulS · Post by **[old] PaulS** » November 3rd, 2005, 5:55 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Nov 3 2005, 01:42 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>I have done the max splits quite a few times over the last few years, and have experimented with high rates, low rates, low drag factors and high ones. My lowest the last couple years is 1:24 pace, which I clicked maybe 10 times or so and was at 42 spm. This is intermediate on the UK list as compared to my 2k, which is pretty good for me considering my abilities are more in the distance events and I am not as fast at sprints. So here are some suggestions from someone who has actually done the max splits before.<br /><br />1) Do your own trials and experiments, and find out what is best for you. Observe how others do the max splits and consider their suggestions. Don't consider any suggestions by anyone who has not even tried them or who would get injured if they did;<br /><br />2) Put the damper up a couple of notches from where you have it for 500 meters, or else put the damper on 10. I put it on 10 for mine. Do not use a low drag factor for max splits as it would more likely result in injuries, in particular if you combined a low drag factor with low stroke rate. <br /><br />3) Use the same meters per stroke as you do for a 2k or 500 meters, or you can use a lower meters per stroke but not a higher one. A higher meters per stroke could, again, result in injuries as you would be putting excessive strain on your wrists and the rest of your body. For example, Graham Benton rows close to 10 mps for a 2k, but is close to 8 mps for the 500 meters and probably less than that for max split;<br /><br />4) Keep up your stroke rate. Do not use a low stroke rate for max splits, as doing so would put too much pressure on your wrists and the rest of your body and would very likely result in injuries. <br /><br />5) You can go for max splits many ways. My method is to set the monitor for 50 meters or else 10 seconds, and 80s rests in between. Thus you are doing them starting each 90s and with full recoveries in between. Then you take the same number of strokes every time, finding the most efficient number of strokes to reach the fastest speed possible.<br /><br />6) Sometimes I have done 6 of these in a row but have found it more effective to do them in two sets, which is usually 2 sets of 5 and about 6 to 10 minutes in between sets. Even though the first set feels as hard as possible, the second set is invariably faster.<br /><br />I did some max splits a few days last week and was surprised to click off a few 1:27's. My fastest last fall were 1:29's so I'm not sure what the difference has been. I've not been doing any weights at all but have been running 2 miles every morning. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />John, you were doing fine there for a while, but once again getting into territory which requires corrections.<br /><br />1) Not bad as a suggestion, but not particularly good either.<br />2) Completely backwards! A faster spinning flywheel (low DF) will be far less likely to cause injury than a slower one (high DF).<br />3) You're all over the place on this one, how can that be useful?<br />4) Contradicts #3, or doesn't, anyone's guess.<br />5) How on earth did you get in 10 1:24's in 50m or 10 seconds?<br />6) Perhaps suggesting a good warm-up would be more direct.<br /><br />Now come on and tell us more about the Slides, that's why we got them for you afterall.

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » November 3rd, 2005, 6:14 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Nov 3 2005, 01:42 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Don't consider any suggestions by anyone who has not even tried them or who would get injured if they did;[right] </td></tr></table><br /><br />This one was for you, Paul.

[old] PaulS · Post by **[old] PaulS** » November 3rd, 2005, 7:03 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Nov 3 2005, 02:14 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Nov 3 2005, 01:42 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Don't consider any suggestions by anyone who has not even tried them or who would get injured if they did;[right] </td></tr></table><br /><br />This one was for you, Paul. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />What makes you think I have not done what would amount to a "low pull" by any standard, or would get injured doing it? Two years ago, I did not heed some of my own advice and did a couple tests that did take some time to recover from, but we all live and learn, at least I like to think so. <br /><br />Once again, you are showing a terribly nasty side that seems to require medication to keep in check.<br /><br />Good luck.

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » November 3rd, 2005, 7:56 pm

Paul,<br /><br />Sorry that you are on medication again, and got injured doing low pulls. <br /><br />Hope all will be well again soon.

[old] PaulS · Post by **[old] PaulS** » November 3rd, 2005, 9:44 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Nov 3 2005, 03:56 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Paul,<br /><br />Sorry that you are on medication again, and got injured doing low pulls. <br /><br />Hope all will be well again soon. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />As usual, you leave me wondering what reality you live in. I did not get injured doing "low pulls", well it was lower than anything you've ever seen, but it was doing some short and middle distance pieces (500m & 2500m). The injury was not immediately apparent but was probably more an aggravation of the older injury, I just gotta learn not to do that anymore. Fortunately it did not require any form of medication, well maybe a martini or two. <br /><br />I know you think you are being clever, but you really are just removing any remaining doubt that others may have about your unique perspective on things (Bizzarro World). Stop now and save yourself.<br /><br />Did you get a little too close to the Nuclear Radiation on your trip through Eastern WA? Them kids from the tri-cities always seemed to be able jump higher than the rest.

[old] remador · Post by **[old] remador** » November 4th, 2005, 7:10 am

<b>PaulS wrote:</b><br /><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>What was your source of data for international Oarsmen? </td></tr></table><br /><br />Unfortunately, I can't remember where it was (too much internet info in my brain). <br /><br />However, here are some interesting data, although they show somewhat "lighter" results:<br /><br /><a href='http://www.coachesinfo.com/category/rowing/79/' target='_blank'>http://www.coachesinfo.com/category/rowing/79/</a><br /><br /><a href='http://physiotherapy.curtin.edu.au/reso ... rowing.cfm' target='_blank'>http://physiotherapy.curtin.edu.au/reso ... cfm</a><br /><br /><a href='http://www.humankinetics.com/products/s ... pt_id=3726' target='_blank'>http://www.humankinetics.com/products/s ... 726</a><br /><br /><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>The term you are looking for at the end is isokintetic rather than isometric, as rowers we rarely work against static resistance (less time than even the first complete stroke), we must always first "catch up to the resistance" then provide force in excess of the speed at which that resistance is moving. </td></tr></table><br /><br />Not quite. What I was suggesting is that: a - max pulls should come more from strength and less from seat speed and bad tecnhique, if and when we started to make tests with restricted rates (on-water rowing being a good standard for comparisons); b - if some oarsmen pull x Newtons, they would pull x+y (y>0) in isometric conditions - I was just trying to focus on the "strength side" of the sport.<br /><br />AM

[old] remador · Post by **[old] remador** » November 4th, 2005, 7:51 am

Some more stuff:<br /><br /><a href='http://www.yorkshirerowing.co.uk/biomechanics.htm' target='_blank'>http://www.yorkshirerowing.co.uk/biomec ... htm</a><br /><br />AM

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"low Pull"

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