Low stroke rate - how to?

[OregonERG]

If your going to compare low rowing rating with swimming its like the difference between using fins and not using fins. I'm talking the same fins used for diving like Cressi.

I hate not using fins, my feet are flapping all over the place and I'm not going anywhere fast and there is the feeling of no loading in the legs. Fins dramatically slow down the legs and the feeling of loading increases significantly. Sure I'm not an elite swimmer, in fact I cannot really swim at all but the fins allow a decent 1 hour plus continuous workout in the pool and that's all I'm interested in.

That is a good comparison. I think it is, as you said, a question of what you are trying to achieve and what you are willing (or not willing) to change to get there. I want to get back into sub-7 2km shape but I don't want to run less or gain any muscle mass... so I am chasing two goals at once; not the best way to train. I think that I should be able to row 6:5x if I got a bit stronger, but on days like today, when the sun is shining, I like to go running. So in the end, it comes down to "serving two masters" and not really committing to the erg.

[ampire]

If your going to compare low rowing rating with swimming its like the difference between using fins and not using fins. I'm talking the same fins used for diving like Cressi.

I hate not using fins, my feet are flapping all over the place and I'm not going anywhere fast and there is the feeling of no loading in the legs. Fins dramatically slow down the legs and the feeling of loading increases significantly. Sure I'm not an elite swimmer, in fact I cannot really swim at all but the fins allow a decent 1 hour plus continuous workout in the pool and that's all I'm interested in.

That is a good comparison. I think it is, as you said, a question of what you are trying to achieve and what you are willing (or not willing) to change to get there. I want to get back into sub-7 2km shape but I don't want to run less or gain any muscle mass... so I am chasing two goals at once; not the best way to train. I think that I should be able to row 6:5x if I got a bit stronger, but on days like today, when the sun is shining, I like to go running. So in the end, it comes down to "serving two masters" and not really committing to the erg.

I don't think you are going to gain mass if you start rowing at lower stroke ratings. Most strength improvement is neurological. Improved motor neuron firing. Also, it is possible to be very strong and lightweight. Bodybuilding and strength training are two different things. And rowing at lower ratings isn't bodybuilding nor is it strength training. I also think that you could easily gain enormous amount of strength on a mere 5 lbs of muscle mass gain. You might not even gain any overall mass, just recomposition.

Anecdotally, my best deadlift at 180 lb bodyweight (when I was more into bodybuilding) was 445lb and my best deadlift at 140 lb bodyweight (when I was more into calisthenics) was 405 lb. This was before I had a spinal cord cav mal, can't do either now. It doesn't take much bodyweight to pull relatively big loads if you train low reps heavy weight. I did a lot of triples.

If you like rowing at higher ratings, then just keep doing so. Train the way you like to train.

[Carl Watts]

I want to get back into sub-7 2km shape but I don't want to run less or gain any muscle mass... so I am chasing two goals at once

You have a problem then because the shorter the distance the more power required.

Its one thing to have great cardio but if you simply do not have the power to pull a faster pace, then your stuffed.

Its quite common to see people not even trying to go for PB's in distances less than the 2K, the power required is a cubic law and it really starts to get nasty trying to go faster than 1:45 pace.

[jamesg]

want to get back into sub-7 2km shape

You have plenty of endurance, a necessary condition. However 2k racing being middle distance requires specific training and a highish gear, which in erging means a long stroke with a sharp catch.

Your training stroke at all ratings from 20 to 35 will need to be worth around 9 watt-minutes. Avoid long pieces, you've done them already.

[OregonERG]

want to get back into sub-7 2km shape

Your training stroke at all ratings from 20 to 35 will need to be worth around 9 watt-minutes. Avoid long pieces, you've done them already.

That's so true. I really do need to do the 10x250 and stuff like that (at goal pace). I have no problem grinding out the 30-60 minutes at 1:5x pace but 250m at 1:44 is terrifying for me. Funny how that is... for some people it is the other way around. Ugh.

[Tandstad]

If your a heavy average Joe, it pays to get your rating down for a Full Marathon.

Although it was no world record mine was done at only 18spm from memory. I don't think I would have managed to finish if I had to fly up and down the slide at 32spm for just under 3 hours.

Just saw your post now, and got to thinking about a guy I have inspected the workouts of more than once in the logbook. I cannot understand how this is possible:


Obviously this guy is -very- fast, faster than I will ever row the marathon. But, I cannot seem to understand how this is possible Btw, -all- his workouts are at 35+ rating. It does not seem like he is using slides either, which could explain a somewhat higher rating than a standard c2.

[winniewinser]

Just saw your post now, and got to thinking about a guy I have inspected the workouts of more than once in the logbook. I cannot understand how this is possible:


Obviously this guy is -very- fast, faster than I will ever row the marathon. But, I cannot seem to understand how this is possible Btw, -all- his workouts are at 35+ rating. It does not seem like he is using slides either, which could explain a somewhat higher rating than a standard c2.

You sure that's not a Skierg session ....clearly noted as a rower but the rate is obnoxious

[Tandstad]

Just saw your post now, and got to thinking about a guy I have inspected the workouts of more than once in the logbook. I cannot understand how this is possible:


Obviously this guy is -very- fast, faster than I will ever row the marathon. But, I cannot seem to understand how this is possible Btw, -all- his workouts are at 35+ rating. It does not seem like he is using slides either, which could explain a somewhat higher rating than a standard c2.

You sure that's not a Skierg session ....clearly noted as a rower but the rate is obnoxious

Yeah pretty sure, he has -a lot- of workouts that are all noted as rowing. His profile picture is also on an erg. He is also noted as being 77 kgs, which of course is probably not helping if it was ski-erg, which I assume is more upper body focused.

I have yet to find any workouts he has done under 32 rating

[winniewinser]

Just saw your post now, and got to thinking about a guy I have inspected the workouts of more than once in the logbook. I cannot understand how this is possible:


Obviously this guy is -very- fast, faster than I will ever row the marathon. But, I cannot seem to understand how this is possible Btw, -all- his workouts are at 35+ rating. It does not seem like he is using slides either, which could explain a somewhat higher rating than a standard c2.

You sure that's not a Skierg session ....clearly noted as a rower but the rate is obnoxious

Yeah pretty sure, he has -a lot- of workouts that are all noted as rowing. His profile picture is also on an erg. He is also noted as being 77 kgs, which of course is probably not helping if it was ski-erg, which I assume is more upper body focused.

I have yet to find any workouts he has done under 32 rating

Just found his log....man has a Ferrari engine for sure! ......ex Triathlete so clearly very very fit.

Only other person I know who spanks everything is Keith Darby, he was marginally quicker but at R27....even that is beyond me.

[Tandstad]

You sure that's not a Skierg session ....clearly noted as a rower but the rate is obnoxious

Yeah pretty sure, he has -a lot- of workouts that are all noted as rowing. His profile picture is also on an erg. He is also noted as being 77 kgs, which of course is probably not helping if it was ski-erg, which I assume is more upper body focused.

I have yet to find any workouts he has done under 32 rating

Just found his log....man has a Ferrari engine for sure! ......ex Triathlete so clearly very very fit.

Only other person I know who spanks everything is Keith Darby, he was marginally quicker but at R27....even that is beyond me.

Yeah, but even though he is a very very fit ex triathlete....I can see doing 2:33, definitely. But at rating 39?

Keith is a machine, nothing more to say doing 17355 meters on a 60 min blind row, rating 29, being a lwt(I think?) 40+ year old. I don't know how it is possible, I assume it is from years and years of doing insane mileage. Looks so effortless too, him sitting at 1:48 just as relaxed as when I do 2:00 probably

[jamesg]

I really do need to do the 10x250

Work like 250m intervals can be quite fun since there's not a lot of work there. I'd start slow, if only to complete the warm-up, making sure the stroke is what you need for a 2k (such as 200W at 23 and so on) finishing the set at faster than 2k pace.

[Carl Watts]

Instead of just the numbers have you got the graphs below the numbers ?

That really high drag and fast rating for someone of 77Kg doesn't really line up that well either.

You also have to remember that any result is only truly verified at an organized race venue.

[Carl Watts]

Just did the first HM of the season and when looking at the rankings for NZL in to 50-59 age group the top row has the classic faulty monitor and or wrong monitor setup in the graphs.

https://log.concept2.com/profile/1195692/log/54290853

When the rating has 100-112 spm spikes its the give away sign of a monitor problem. Unfortunately this is quite common and unless your ranking the row using ErgData and making the row public it doesn't show up for everyone to see.

Results in the graph should look more like this in terms of stability.

https://log.concept2.com/profile/863525/log/56641029

[Dangerscouse]

I only use Ergzone, not Ergdata, and I get a graph that I'm expecting

https://log.concept2.com/profile/933580/log/56354597

This is a good example as there is a drop in SPM when I stopped to change headphones when the battery died, and every other graph follows the correct pattern, so why is Ergdata the only option to verify and rank it?

[Carl Watts]

Sorry never even heard of ErgZone and not noticed anyone else using it.

Same point applies, its the graphs that matter.

You would still rate Concept 2's ErgData ahead of any other 3rd party product, its now the de facto standard for a verified row.

Anyway we are kind of splitting hairs, the far bigger problem is that 95% of those with a log don't make the rows public so you cannot see the graphs to start with.

A far better idea would be to make at least the rows in the rankings publicly visible to everyone with a C2 Logbook. Just the fact its "Verified" is no longer good enough really, things have moved on to a better system.