Am I sick??? shocked by my numbers

[Nomath]

I am at a different age, in the 70s. My HRmax measured recently in a physical check-up on a cycle ergometer with a power ramp was 153 bpm, but on a rowing erg I can get slightly higher, near 155. I would find exercising at 60%, e.g. 93 bpm as a target, really frustratingly slow. As max_radcliffe said, it makes more sense to exercise at 60% of your vital HF range. In my case: 45 + 0.6*(155-45) = 111 bpm. I still find that low intensity hard to sustain.

My almost daily exercise is a 5K run without pause and without warm-up. Usually I decide after a few strokes whether I take it easy, i.e. in the 70-80% range, or challenge myself so that the second half of the 5K is in the 90-100% range. I like exercises in which I keep some reserve, so mostly as the HR increases, my 1K laps get faster.
The data in the graph are from this year. They show a fairly linear increase of average power vs average HR. As far as I know, there is no physiological reason why the trend should be linear, but the data do not suggest a more complex relationship.



Of course, the data are very particular to my age, technique, fitness, prowess, etc., but my conjecture is that the percentual increase of 10% in power for 10% increase in heart rate will apply for many individuals.

My recommendation is that you increase your average intensity level to 60% of your vital range, in your case probably around 125, but do not take this as a fixed target. It is much more entertaining to increase the HR-target by 5 after each 1K lap or 5 mins, e.g. 115 - 120 - 125 - 130 - 135 bpm. From the power-HR data from each 1K lap you could check your personal slope.

[jost]

100 watts is about a 2:30 pace. 2:30 is reasonable for long slow, but maybe not when you are just starting. If you can hit 2:00 spits for 15 mins during a hard workout then 2:30 long slow is reasonable/perfect.

I definitely cannot do 2:00 splits for 15 mins. No way.

If you are more like 2:15 for 20 mins hard then 2:30 long slow is not going to work. You can push through it, but you will be into lactate buildup and you will *not* get the benefits described in the literature.

This is precisely my fear. Trying to figure out what my proper pace should be RIGHT NOW, without going to a lab getting a lactate threshold test so I can properly set my 3 training zones.

[jost]

Ok, I need to clarify something.

The only reason im doing 30 mins right now is because im starting from completely sedentary and didnt want to shock my system too hard.
I was planning on 30 min rows for week 1 or 2 only, then move to 45, then to 1 hour rows minimum.

I dont want to do any other kind of rowing other than the looong and slooow stuff, because im doing jiu jitsu again, that is effectively my zone 3 training and get plenty of that already.

Rowing will be 100% zone 1 for me. ( out of 3 zones )

Thanks... ill watch the videos.

How do you feel at the end of the 30 minutes ?

Feels like I did nothing at all. Like I didnt exercise.
Its so easy its hard to imagine its enough stress to cause an adaptive response.

You are doing 30 minute rows. Most literature says don't bother at less than 45 min, try hitting this pace for 90 minutes on the long slow. Do add the day or two of fast rows. Then see how your pace improves over a month at constant low HR, and see how your resting HR falls.

If you can't budget the time to do sufficient long slow then you need a different workout approach. What you described " So I decided to massive zone 1 training to build a good base." isn't going to happen at 30 minutes. Going hard for 30 minutes 3 days/week is better plan if you have only 2-3 hours/week. Use workouts from the beginner peter plan. https://thepeteplan.wordpress.com/beginner-training/

This guy is a cyclist, but he has the long slow stuff down cold and he uses it to win bike races. SKIP the first minute and a half, its content free then look hard at his proposed workout schedules. The workout plans are for cycling, but work for rowing and they are roughly what top level rowers do. See where he makes his trade-offs. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9SvLGv2c1E&t=517s

[jost]

I think what im looking for is a good proxy for setting my zone 1 properly ( out of 3 for polarized training ) without going to a lab every month.

[jost]

Found some good quotes from Dr Seiler on how to fine zone 1 without a lactate test

If you haven’t had lactate measured then Dr Seiler gives estimates based on HRmax / HRpeak, from the podcast notes:

If you want to find the first lactate turn point, you ideally need to measure lactate.
As a reasonable educated guess, keep it below 75% heart rate peak for zone 1.
If you really are in zone 1, you should not see a big drift in the heart rate. The HR you have after 15 minutes should be the same as at 60 minutes.
If you’re drifting up a lot there’s a good chance you’re working at a higher intensity than you think you are.

Ahhhhh that drift test is interesting.
I can spot that easily. Will have to do some testing at 100bpm, 110bpm, 120bpm etc for an hour and find at what heart rate I can see the drift, and dial it down from there until no drift.

[Carl Watts]

How do you feel at the end of the 30 minutes ?

Feels like I did nothing at all. Like I didnt exercise.
Its so easy its hard to imagine its enough stress to cause an adaptive response.

I think you need to step up the pace, try getting the HR to at least 120.

[jamesg]

I think what im looking for is a good proxy for setting my zone 1 properly ( out of 3 for polarized training ) without going to a lab every month.

It's not easy to train on the erg. Training requires hard work, so hard strokes, in increasing numbers as training proceeds. If you don't know how to pull a hard stroke with no injury risk, you won't be able to train at all. So learn to pull good strokes and then just do it.

To keep control simple, use low rating only, staying below 23. If you can't get your HR up to 130-140 at that rating, it's because you are not rowing. So back to square 1: learn how it's done.

The C2 technique videos show how to engage the legs and hips; this is where the large muscle is that does most of the work in rowing. The slide enables full use of the legs: to do this, use the sequences, low drag setting, low foot height with the strap over the toes, posture at the catch with weight well forward on the stretcher, vertical shins, knee angle open; all as shown. This enables a fast catch from well forward, so increasing the net stroke length and reducing the forces and ratings needed for any given Power level. Length loads the CV system only, which is where training is most needed; Force loads both muscle and CV, so has to be limited; if you can walk and climb stairs, your legs are already strong enough to row with.

Beyond the simple approach, there are now many control systems, most available via the PM5 on your C2 Rowerg. However you can't pick and choose, they all apply.

For Zone 1:

- Rating: not more than 23;
- Work: according to age, size and sex, stroke work (= average Watts/Rating) between 7 and 15;
- Heart rate: 80% of range = 0.8 x (Max-Rest) + Rest. Use the average 220-Age = Max failing anything better, then update if and when you see a higher max rate.
- Power/Weight ratio: 2-3 Watts/kg body weight at BMI 23 if male and not too old. For up to 5k I use 1.5 W/kg, so 120-130W: 80y, 185cm x 83kg, rating 20.
- Test based: 70% of 2k test Watts.
- Sweat: plenty.
- Effectiveness: make the boat goes at least 10 meters per stroke.

[Dangerscouse]

Found some good quotes from Dr Seiler on how to fine zone 1 without a lactate test

If you haven’t had lactate measured then Dr Seiler gives estimates based on HRmax / HRpeak, from the podcast notes:

If you want to find the first lactate turn point, you ideally need to measure lactate.
As a reasonable educated guess, keep it below 75% heart rate peak for zone 1.
If you really are in zone 1, you should not see a big drift in the heart rate. The HR you have after 15 minutes should be the same as at 60 minutes.
If you’re drifting up a lot there’s a good chance you’re working at a higher intensity than you think you are.

Ahhhhh that drift test is interesting.
I can spot that easily. Will have to do some testing at 100bpm, 110bpm, 120bpm etc for an hour and find at what heart rate I can see the drift, and dial it down from there until no drift.

Don't forget that you will get some cardiac drift as you progress through a 60 mins + session due to dehydration, heat and fatigue so if you want to maintain a set HR cap, you will probably have to slow down, and your ego won't like that. Per

Like virtually everything to do with exercise the answers for different people are more nuanced than a simple generic answer, so I'd use it as a guide but don't slavishly follow it. If it creeps over by a few bpm, ime, it doesn't make a notable difference, but it's also worth noting that there's no way of directly comparing if it would have or not.

[jost]

PS guys, ive done HIIT style training on my rower for over a decade.
Ive never been injured, because my form is really good. Practiced it a lot.
Shit form at high power/sprints = injuries.

Now im switching gears and only doing endurance training on the erg.
THIS IS COMPLETELY NEW TO ME

So reading lots of research and watching literature videos.
Without that lactate threshold test, im just a bit lost on how to figure out what speed to row so that I dont row too hard. Seems every endurance athlete makes the mistake of going too hard at first. Really trying to avoid that.

I have some things to try now though. Good ideas here. Thanks!

Gonna go do an hour right now and track everything.

[ampire]

Personally, I only noticed significant performance improvements when I disregard heart rate training bands and focus only on producing wattage. If I only paid attention to heart rate I'd never progress.

I've read some articles advocating a lot of slow low intensity steady state, and that that produced better aerobic fitness as evidenced by lower resting heart rates. I tried that for about 6 months and detrained substantially. Made me slower and my resting heart rate actually increased, I was doing about 80-100km slow steady state per week. However, training higher wattage and shorter weekly distances gives me a lower resting heart rate (presently in the 40s) then when I tried a more Maffetone approach of more distance and lower wattage with strict heart rate caps. I have to do what works for me. I don't bother with the heart rate monitor anymore. It seems to work well for some people, didn't work well for me. Try it and if it doesn't work out try something else.

[Dutch]

Totally agree ampire.

[jost]

Just goes to show how different individuals can be, and how the respond to training stress.

But I simply cannot ignore the detailed mountain of evidence, with regards to how the best in the world train. There is a lot of data now, since elite athletes wear devices all the time now.

One of the best XC skiers of all time, for example, they pulled her data, and looked at her percentages by training zone and she was 90% zone 1. This pattern repeats everywhere.

So before making an assumption that im an outlier, I gotta at least test the most proven method for endurance training based on decades of science and what actual elite endurance athletes do.

If it fails for me too... then ill try something else. I strongly suspect im a mostly fast twitch muscle guy. Im very quick and explosive but naturally have shit cardio.

But I really really want a far superior cardio base, and thats what im gonna work on now.

Tried to row an hour this morning, but the damn dogs woke me up at 3am to pee, and im sleep deprived and feel like shit. I quit at 30 mins, because I felt crappy. Held 110bpm for 30 mins and definitely witnessed a lot of fade.

[ampire]

Just goes to show how different individuals can be, and how the respond to training stress.

But I simply cannot ignore the detailed mountain of evidence, with regards to how the best in the world train. There is a lot of data now, since elite athletes wear devices all the time now.

One of the best XC skiers of all time, for example, they pulled her data, and looked at her percentages by training zone and she was 90% zone 1. This pattern repeats everywhere.

So before making an assumption that im an outlier, I gotta at least test the most proven method for endurance training based on decades of science and what actual elite endurance athletes do.

If it fails for me too... then ill try something else. I strongly suspect im a mostly fast twitch muscle guy. Im very quick and explosive but naturally have shit cardio.

But I really really want a far superior cardio base, and thats what im gonna work on now.

Tried to row an hour this morning, but the damn dogs woke me up at 3am to pee, and im sleep deprived and feel like shit. I quit at 30 mins, because I felt crappy. Held 110bpm for 30 mins and definitely witnessed a lot of fade.

Try it and see, it may work for you.

I've seen the same Seiler and Maffetone stuff, read it, tried it for half a year, but I know now what works for me and what doesn't, so don't be afraid to push harder. I'm a short lightweight person. To go faster, I just can't get there purely on a low intensity aerobic base and make use of a tall man's long levers, rather I have to train myself to physically pull harder, become stronger, mentally withstand pain, and improve my technique and form efficiency that simply doesn't come from training for a softer stroke.

Also anecdotally, but I wonder whether amateur athletes do well in their first year or two of training as a product of their hunger for faster pieces, and then they cease to make gains because that lose that hunger for hard and fast progress and instead switch to an easier protocol. Unlike other forms of exercise, we have a reliable means of scientific performance measurement and that is the wattage that the ergometer reports. I'd focus on watts instead.

Also https://www.sportsperformancebulletin.c ... -athletes/

[hjs]

On a different not, when you just walk, what hf do you get then?

And, how do feel when you row? If you did not see a hf reading would you not easily put in more effort?

[Tsnor]

Here are the metrics I use to find zone 1 in 3 zone model without lactate profile and where I got them. They depends on a GOOD max HR, and FTP number. Your max HR and FTP need to be good lower bound numbers (e.g. your max HR might be 180, but you've only seen 172 so you should be using 172. If you later see higher max HR then you update your max HR and rerun your numbers. Max HR will not change with fitness levels. Max HR is observed max HR on the rower, not something from a formula.

Zone 1 target 70% of max HR
Zone 1 cannot exceed 75% of max HR.
Zone 1 the population average for zone 1 max might be 78% of max for lactate curve inflection, that will be too high for 1/2 the people trying it.

Heart rate reserve HRR depends on knowing both max HR and resting HR. Resting HR moves quite a bit with fitness level, illness, how hard you worked 2 days ago, etc. I use these as a cross check, but don't trust them as much. My fitbit measured resting HR is 5-7 points higher than the 2.5 minute snapshot I get each morning from EliteHRV. That's a lot of error.

Compute HRR as Max HR minus resting HR.

Zone 1 target is resting HR + 60% of HRR.
Zone 1 cannot exceed is resting HR + 70% of HRR. I've seen 75% here, but that comes out high for me compared to other approaches

FTP power (wattage based approach). Find your current 1 hour max power on the rower. Or use 95% of your 20 minute max power on the rower. (if you are strong but weak aerobically the 95% of 20 min max will overstate FTP. Rower FTP is less than Bike FTP (your body does the same wattage, the rower is less efficient than the bike so you see a lower wattage on the rower than the bike).

zone 1 target 70% FTP
zone 1 cannot exceed 75% FTP

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0n-nnRbFBs at 4:08. But great video to watch.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-l1qUft ... ning-guide
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GXc474Hu5U&t=19s

I initially used 140 for my personal zone 1 HR target, a very bad number that gave bad results. I am currently targeting around 125 with cannot exceed at 130. It's working better. I got the 140 by using all the formula I could find then picking the highest number because it still felt too slow. Don't do that. Volume was about 60K/week rowing with 2 rowing interval sessions/week plus 1 long bike/week. I'm OTW now and not erging much so much harder to control.

Hear Rate DRIFT is a great cross check on zone 1 heartrate. If you row at constant pace you should see a flat HR over the entire piece in zone 1. Go real slow, find the flat curve then walk it up until you see it bend, then drop back it bit.