Endurance erging - A place to discuss 42, 50, 100k upwards.

[pagomichaelh]

HI there, im not familiar with the Fisher Plan (most plans in fact i think there are many!). Is this regarding James Fisher, Southampton Uni?

My bad, 'Fletcher', not 'Fisher'!

[GlennUk]

My bad, 'Fletcher', not 'Fisher'!

No worries, i am following the Fletcher 100k plan, week 4 myself.

[pagomichaelh]

No worries, i am following the Fletcher 100k plan, week 4 myself.

I'll be starting the 100k plan shortly.

Something I didn't consider until last night is the performance difference might also be because it's been (relative) cold lately.

Our Winter, temp's have been dropping down to mid-20's (*C, ~75*F) at nights, where during the summer the 'comfort factor' can be in the low 40s(*C).

In the summer, I'll put a towel under the erg to soak up the sweat, as I'll loose about 1kg per hour, even though I'll be drinking (water! ) during that time.

The mental aspect of being on the water helps as well too, I get a much better positive attitude being outside in the fresh air.

[GlennUk]

In my onion, the temp and humidity have a significant impact on performance, currently in the UK the temps where i erg are in the range 21-26C and RH 75 - 97%.

Its difficult to be absolutely certain how the variations affect me, but subjectively on the days where RH is very high combined with a few degrees temp rise it seems to have a negative affect.

Although sometimes, my performance leaves something to be desired IMHO and perhaps just looking for something to blame!!

[Dangerscouse]

In my onion, the temp and humidity have a significant impact on performance, currently in the UK the temps where i erg are in the range 21-26C and RH 75 - 97%.

Its difficult to be absolutely certain how the variations affect me, but subjectively on the days where RH is very high combined with a few degrees temp rise it seems to have a negative affect.

Although sometimes, my performance leaves something to be desired IMHO and perhaps just looking for something to blame!!

It does seem to make a notable difference. I only check it after I have finished, so it doesn't cloud my judgment, but it was 24c and 87% humidity this morning and I really felt it.

I do think you do get accustomed to it, as the summer progresses, but it's a shock to the system to start with. I really struggle to get close to PBs when the weather is like this

[GlennUk]

The room our erg is in faces approx WNW and is cooler (much) in the mornings as there are trees to the south shading the building, but some silly old sod prefers top erg later in the day, go figure !!

[sanbornm]

Are you following any kind of plan and would you like to outline the approach?

Im following the Eddie Fletcher 100k plan which focuses on HRmax as a means of determining workrate for any given training distance, followed by rate and then pace, with the three components controlled within defined values.

Hi Glen
I just sort of developed a training plan with a rowing coach friend of mine. It's based off training for long distance running, and is basically incremental increases in total distance over the weeks. I'll plan on hitting a max distance of 60 km in training at some point. To keep it fresh I'll intersperse some intervals so I don't get bored, and to keep from just doing steady state distance pieces. My max HR based on an improvised test is approximately 181 bpm and I try and do my steady state rows at around 70% of max. HR. I didn't have the $$ in the budget to buy Fletcher's plan.

I have been rowing on slides, with a low drag factor for the longer pieces. Between the drag factor and the slides my cruising stroke rate is much higher than it would be if I was on stationary erg and rowing for more power. For the long row it's more like skipping along, trying to maintain cruising speed without putting too much strain into the handle (and hence my body). I can cruise along at 2:10/500m and 25 strokes per minute quite nicely.

A 2:10/ pace might be a little ambitious for a 100km piece, but I did 30km last night at 2:08/500m and it was not too bad. That was my longest row to date (by 30% actually, previous longest was 1/2 marathon) and everything went well. The last 5-6 km were a little spicy, and my ass is a bit sore today.

[Dangerscouse]

I just sort of developed a training plan with a rowing coach friend of mine. It's based off training for long distance running, and is basically incremental increases in total distance over the weeks. I'll plan on hitting a max distance of 60 km in training at some point. To keep it fresh I'll intersperse some intervals so I don't get bored, and to keep from just doing steady state distance pieces. My max HR based on an improvised test is approximately 181 bpm and I try and do my steady state rows at around 70% of max. HR. I didn't have the $$ in the budget to buy Fletcher's plan.

That is exactly what I did. I'd suggest circa 60k is all you really need to do to prepare for a 100k, and make sure you don't overtrain like I did.

As a rough guide my 100k target pace was my FM pace + 7/8, but that would have been a tough target pace. I planned it badly (again) when I tried to do another 100k in early May, but I think it was possible with better preparation.

If you want a more reasonable pace, I'd suggest +10, but understanding your FM pace is important as there is a world of difference between a 30k and a FM.

[Tsnor]

In my onion, the temp and humidity have a significant impact on performance, currently in the UK the temps where i erg are in the range 21-26C and RH 75 - 97%.

Its difficult to be absolutely certain how the variations affect me, but subjectively on the days where RH is very high combined with a few degrees temp rise it seems to have a negative affect.

Although sometimes, my performance leaves something to be desired IMHO and perhaps just looking for something to blame!!

Heat and relative humidity strongly impact performance. They don't let your body cool down. One work-around is to to have a high output fan blowing on you. Cooler body temp lets you do the same work at a lower heart rate -- less blood is tied up next to your skin trying to keep you cool. Look for 18" - 20" floor fan. I have mine behind me blowing at me so its not in my face.

EDIT: if you are pushing 300W on the erg, at typical 25% efficiency you are dumping 900W of heat by breathing, sweating and directly out your skin. Without something to get rid of that heat you cook.

[GlennUk]

In my onion, the temp and humidity have a significant impact on performance, currently in the UK the temps where i erg are in the range 21-26C and RH 75 - 97%.

Its difficult to be absolutely certain how the variations affect me, but subjectively on the days where RH is very high combined with a few degrees temp rise it seems to have a negative affect.

Although sometimes, my performance leaves something to be desired IMHO and perhaps just looking for something to blame!!

Heat and relative humidity strongly impact performance. They don't let your body cool down. One work-around is to to have a high output fan blowing on you. Cooler body temp lets you do the same work at a lower heart rate -- less blood is tied up next to your skin trying to keep you cool. Look for 18" - 20" floor fan. I have mine behind me blowing at me so its not in my face.

EDIT: if you are pushing 300W on the erg, at typical 25% efficiency you are dumping 900W of heat by breathing, sweating and directly out your skin. Without something to get rid of that heat you cook.

Thanks for the thoughts, i do have a fam but its a vertical domestic one and i have seen Rod Chinn's set up where i think he has two similar to the size you mention on the floor in front, so i had been toying with a change to help with the performance and to be frank comfort.

I also prefer my fan behind me,, just th eon ei have is not that strong.

[GlennUk]

That is exactly what I did. I'd suggest circa 60k is all you really need to do to prepare for a 100k, and make sure you don't overtrain like I did.

As a rough guide my 100k target pace was my FM pace + 7/8, but that would have been a tough target pace. I planned it badly (again) when I tried to do another 100k in early May, but I think it was possible with better preparation.

If you want a more reasonable pace, I'd suggest +10, but understanding your FM pace is important as there is a world of difference between a 30k and a FM.

My longest session on the EF plan is 210 minutes i think which will be about a FM at my 100k pace.

THe EF plan equates your training paces to a recent 2k time, so for me this gave a 100k pace of c.2:32.5/500m, compared with a marathon target pace of c.2:17.50 - 2:21.0/500m

The paces are also related to HR values as well, for the 100k the range is expected to be 80-85% HRmax value for the duration, whatever that may be, whereas for the FM its 85-92.5% HRmax.

My 60k was done at 2:30.7 average. However, my target HR was based on HRmax of 176bpm, whereas when i did the CTC (3miles, 2 miles, 1mile) after the 60k (not immediately obvs) i saw a HRmax value of in excess of 176bpm for the last 80 seconds or so, peaking at 183bpm.

Adjusting my HR % measured ruing the 60k and based on the higher measured value of 183, average HR over 60k was c.85% with a peak in the last 10k of 90%/168bpm. For the last 10k my pace increased to an average of 2:26.0/500m so significantly quicker than the previous 50k.

Hope that's helpful for pacing info or at least how its working for me, PS i'm planning to row 116k, dont ask!

[pagomichaelh]

Heat and relative humidity strongly impact performance. They don't let your body cool down. One work-around is to to have a high output fan blowing on you. Cooler body temp lets you do the same work at a lower heart rate -- less blood is tied up next to your skin trying to keep you cool. Look for 18" - 20" floor fan. I have mine behind me blowing at me so its not in my face.

EDIT: if you are pushing 300W on the erg, at typical 25% efficiency you are dumping 900W of heat by breathing, sweating and directly out your skin. Without something to get rid of that heat you cook.

If the ambient temp is within ~3*C of body temp, a fan can't cool you - it doesn't reduce the heat load of your body, it adds to it. A real issue if you've ever ridden an unfaired motorcycle in the desert.

Not an issue for Europeans (their hot is my cold). No one here ever exercises mid-day, it'll kill you.

[Tsnor]

Heat and relative humidity strongly impact performance. They don't let your body cool down. One work-around is to to have a high output fan blowing on you. Cooler body temp lets you do the same work at a lower heart rate -- less blood is tied up next to your skin trying to keep you cool. Look for 18" - 20" floor fan. I have mine behind me blowing at me so its not in my face.

EDIT: if you are pushing 300W on the erg, at typical 25% efficiency you are dumping 900W of heat by breathing, sweating and directly out your skin. Without something to get rid of that heat you cook.

If the ambient temp is within ~3*C of body temp, a fan can't cool you - it doesn't reduce the heat load of your body, it adds to it. A real issue if you've ever ridden an unfaired motorcycle in the desert.

Not an issue for Europeans (their hot is my cold). No one here ever exercises mid-day, it'll kill you.

Evaporative/Swamp cooler get to temps way below ambient by evaporative cooling. They work on cars driving through deserts. If you are hot in the desert and you are sweating then you should be getting colder, even sitting on a motorcycle...? https://itstillruns.com/thermador-swamp ... 63947.html

"..If the ambient temp is within ~3*C of body temp, a fan can't cool you..." this makes no sense. If you are exercising and producing 900W of additional heat then air at body temp is better than no air flow -- you need to dump 900W of heat just to maintain body temp. And we know that people can exercise at 100F and not die. We also know that people can maintain their body temp in ambient temps greater than their body temp.

See also google results for using a fan with an indoor cycle (e.g. a trainer for zwift). Strongly recommended.

[GlennUk]

if the temp of the air is higher than your skin temp it will add heat potentially, however when you sweat the evaporation of the sweat cools you. As long as you are sweating and some sweat is evaporating your body temp can be controlled. In my former career as a firefighter, heat stress was a common issue due to the protective clothing worn preventing evaporative cooling.

A quick google doesn't provide a simple answer to upper limits for exercised, but at rest there's a suggestion that relatively dry air, up to 140F/60c is feasible https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/04/scie ... ature.html

At the moderate temps found in the UK the issue is the level of humidity combined, increasing airflow significantly is likely to provide cooling benefits.

Of course not suggesting anyone exercises outside in the full glare of the midday sun where temps routinely peak much higher.

We are creating a home gym and one of the essentials is ventilation and humidity control, so hopefully in month or two we will have better environment to exercise in.

[pagomichaelh]

Here's one article:

http://www.zunis.org/at_least_theres_a_breeze.htm

I live in the tropics, no A/C, and ride motorcycles (first five pics here is my rig https://www.dmcsidecars.com/gallery/ken ... -sidecars/), so I'm probably a lot more up on the dangers of hot weather stuff.