Weight training for rowing.

[Tony Cook]

My son has strong legs and a 3RM of over 200kg. One of his tough lighter workouts is 10 x10 at 60kg with 25 seconds rest. He says he doesn’t think he could do twice that number of reps unless there were long rest periods.
It must take hours to do the 1300 reps.

[Dutch]

The rest period used for high reps from reading around seems to be anything up to 2 mins.

By the sounds of it your son is doing German volume training, which is brutal due to the low rest time.

There was a rowing club in the USA that does a similar workout to the 1300 rep one, but they only perform it once a week.

[Gammmmo]

I think the OP has to narrow down what it is they want to achieve by intoducing weights or body weight exercises. Need to give some thought as to how you will know what you are doing (and choose a regime specifically for say 6 weeks or so to test it) is working. You have to select an approach and then stick with it...lots of things cited in this thread to choose from.

IMO when it comes to improving performance at mainly aerobic events rather than a more holistic "I feel better" benefit (not necessarily saing those two things are mutually exclusive) most people who do weight training are getting v little benefit. When I was erging at my best I didn't have any injuries that needed addressing and basically mainly did erging with some cycling when the overuse from the erging got too much for my elbows etc. I did no weights really. Same with biking - mainly a TTer with events 20mins to ~3.5hrs, no weights, more bang for buck focusing on improving FTP and even more so aerodynamics. That said, I'm thinking the OP is more about the holistic benefits...mainly wants variation, and the enjoyment and better health that comes from that?

[Tsnor]

IMO when it comes to improving performance at mainly aerobic events rather than a more holistic "I feel better" benefit (not necessarily saing those two things are mutually exclusive) most people who do weight training are getting v little benefit. ... Same with biking - mainly a TTer with events 20mins to ~3.5hrs, no weights, more bang for buck focusing on improving FTP and even more so aerodynamics.

Think cyclists including endurance cyclists and crit riders agree that weight training is an essential part of their training program.

Rowing should follow the same pattern, less studies though.

This study for well trained cyclists is typical, there are similar studies for untrained - with same results. (https://journals.lww.com/nsca-jscr/Full ... my.26.aspx)

" In conclusion, maximal strength training for 8 weeks improved CE and efficiency and increased time to exhaustion at maximal aerobic power among competitive road cyclists, without change in maximal oxygen uptake, cadence, or body weight. Based on the results from the present study, we advise cyclists to include maximal strength training in their training programs."

[flatbread]

Ronnestadt is your go-to for weight training and cyclists -- he's been the leading researcher for the last 20 years

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24862305/

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19903319/

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs ... /sms.12104

For rowing, the big problem would be spinal load. Doing old-school Bompa-style lifting -- squats and deadlifts, 3-5 reps at 90% of max with 3-5 min rest between sets, then converting that strength to medium-duration endurance by doing squats and deadlifts at say 30% of max for 4-5 minutes continuously, would be a lot a lot a lot of spinal load.

Looking at what 20-something elites do in the gym is probably not what 30 and 40 and 50-something duffers like us should do, either.

Perhaps look at multi-joint exercises that use kettlebells, dumb bells, or even body weight (try some of these https://simplifaster.com/articles/true- ... exercises/)

[Gammmmo]

IMO when it comes to improving performance at mainly aerobic events rather than a more holistic "I feel better" benefit (not necessarily saing those two things are mutually exclusive) most people who do weight training are getting v little benefit. ... Same with biking - mainly a TTer with events 20mins to ~3.5hrs, no weights, more bang for buck focusing on improving FTP and even more so aerodynamics.

Think cyclists including endurance cyclists and crit riders agree that weight training is an essential part of their training program.

Rowing should follow the same pattern, less studies though.

This study for well trained cyclists is typical, there are similar studies for untrained - with same results. (https://journals.lww.com/nsca-jscr/Full ... my.26.aspx)

" In conclusion, maximal strength training for 8 weeks improved CE and efficiency and increased time to exhaustion at maximal aerobic power among competitive road cyclists, without change in maximal oxygen uptake, cadence, or body weight. Based on the results from the present study, we advise cyclists to include maximal strength training in their training programs."

"A 5% improvement in CE should actually account for a 5% improvement in time performance over a given distance. Therefore, we advise cyclists at both recreational and higher levels to include maximal strength training as a supplement to their endurance training program. We suggest a protocol of 4·4 RM 2-3 times per week using half-squats. This training session only takes about 20 minutes to perform"

So, if I am reading that right 20mins of max strength training 2-3 times a week, yields a 5% improvement in time? I call BS. Sorry, that wouldn't happen. do the math(s) as to what sort of power increase that would require.
I am not saying weight training is useless for endurance bikers BUT in the vast majority of cases it's way less useful that the above. When you look at most people's aerobic (training) programmes and even more, as said, gains they are leaving on the table with aerodynamics, you'd be far better off using the time there. Anyway, we digress, it's about rowing really anwyay.....

Over and out.

[Tsnor]

IMO when it comes to improving performance at mainly aerobic events rather than a more holistic "I feel better" benefit (not necessarily saing those two things are mutually exclusive) most people who do weight training are getting v little benefit. ... Same with biking - mainly a TTer with events 20mins to ~3.5hrs, no weights, more bang for buck focusing on improving FTP and even more so aerodynamics.

Think cyclists including endurance cyclists and crit riders agree that weight training is an essential part of their training program.

Rowing should follow the same pattern, less studies though.

This study for well trained cyclists is typical, there are similar studies for untrained - with same results. (https://journals.lww.com/nsca-jscr/Full ... my.26.aspx)

" In conclusion, maximal strength training for 8 weeks improved CE and efficiency and increased time to exhaustion at maximal aerobic power among competitive road cyclists, without change in maximal oxygen uptake, cadence, or body weight. Based on the results from the present study, we advise cyclists to include maximal strength training in their training programs."

"A 5% improvement in CE should actually account for a 5% improvement in time performance over a given distance. Therefore, we advise cyclists at both recreational and higher levels to include maximal strength training as a supplement to their endurance training program. We suggest a protocol of 4·4 RM 2-3 times per week using half-squats. This training session only takes about 20 minutes to perform"

So, if I am reading that right 20mins of max strength training 2-3 times a week, yields a 5% improvement in time? I call BS. Sorry, that wouldn't happen. do the math(s) as to what sort of power increase that would require.
I am not saying weight training is useless for endurance bikers BUT in the vast majority of cases it's way less useful that the above. When you look at most people's aerobic (training) programmes and even more, as said, gains they are leaving on the table with aerodynamics, you'd be far better off using the time there. Anyway, we digress, it's about rowing really anwyay.....

Over and out.

re B.S. on the study -- They report what they measure. Sometimes they set up the experiment wrong, but they describe what they measure.

The study also said "... The average 5% improvement in CE in the present study is in agreement with results shown in cross-country skiing of 9-23% (13,24), soccer of 5% (15), and running of 5% (29). .." So if BS, there's a lot of it going around.

Here is a "survey" article that highlights a bunch of other research in the area. It seems conclusive that weight training improves cycle times even for endurance races. https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs ... /sms.12104

Aside: your LP=1:15 ? -- NICE !

[max_ratcliffe]

<>
"A 5% improvement in CE should actually account for a 5% improvement in time performance over a given distance. Therefore, we advise cyclists at both recreational and higher levels to include maximal strength training as a supplement to their endurance training program. We suggest a protocol of 4·4 RM 2-3 times per week using half-squats. This training session only takes about 20 minutes to perform"

So, if I am reading that right 20mins of max strength training 2-3 times a week, yields a 5% improvement in time? I call BS. Sorry, that wouldn't happen. <>

Over and out.

I'm no physiologist, but the study seemed not unreasonable to me. The subjects did not usually train strength so the quite marked increases in 1RM and RFD seemed believable. Is it correct to extrapolate from the 5% increase in CE to a 5% improvement in speed? I think that's possibly unwarranted, and too long a bow to draw on what otherwise seemed to be a reasonable study, albeit with a low n.

Your experience of going from cycling to rowing to weight training will be pretty valuable Paul. Are you incorporating power cleans etc. into your quest for erg sprinting improvements? I always think they look cool, but I'd never give them a crack without being properly coached.

Ronnestadt is your go-to for weight training and cyclists -- he's been the leading researcher for the last 20 years

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24862305/

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19903319/

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs ... /sms.12104

For rowing, the big problem would be spinal load. Doing old-school Bompa-style lifting -- squats and deadlifts, 3-5 reps at 90% of max with 3-5 min rest between sets, then converting that strength to medium-duration endurance by doing squats and deadlifts at say 30% of max for 4-5 minutes continuously, would be a lot a lot a lot of spinal load.

Looking at what 20-something elites do in the gym is probably not what 30 and 40 and 50-something duffers like us should do, either.

Perhaps look at multi-joint exercises that use kettlebells, dumb bells, or even body weight (try some of these https://simplifaster.com/articles/true- ... exercises/)

Thanks for the links. Interesting and provocative comments on the style of training too. Without doing an exhaustive search, it looks like professionals are just starting to study the effects of weight training in the older populations, and - by and large - are in favour for reductions in sarcopenia and fall-prevention, etc. Luckily the prevailing view from our grandparents's generation of retiring to the armchair is a thing of the past.

With deadlifts especially, there's a counter argument about the spinal load in that greater strength will provide more protection against injury. I've often wondered if perhaps leg presses could be quite damaging to rowers as they'd increase the amount of load that we can put into the handle without also strengthening the other parts of the load path. I'm intrigued now as to how much of my DL % I pull on the erg. I must have a proper look at the force curve, but my guess is that I pull a more than that (but then, my DL is pretty feeble).

Anyway, this is just conjecture on my part. I really need to read up on some of the links, but without the background, they take me a while to digest.

[Gammmmo]

I'm no physiologist, but the study seemed not unreasonable to me. The subjects did not usually train strength so the quite marked increases in 1RM and RFD seemed believable. Is it correct to extrapolate from the 5% increase in CE to a 5% improvement in speed? I think that's possibly unwarranted, and too long a bow to draw on what otherwise seemed to be a reasonable study, albeit with a low n.

Hi Max. Yes, good comment IMO. My best at say 25 miles was 49:04 quite a few years ago now (v fast UK dragstrip course artifically quick but with UK TT that still counts - lots of traffic and flat, below average conidtions, day before I medalled at the National 100). So, as said, if I am reading the conclusions properly, 5% of that is nearly 2.5 mins, so I'd have clocked ~46:30 from doing some weight training. No way. If that were the case everyone would be doing it and dare not to stop doing it! Powerlifters wouldn't be able to use squat racks at gyms because cyclists would be constantly in them!

Your experience of going from cycling to rowing to weight training will be pretty valuable Paul. Are you incorporating power cleans etc. into your quest for erg sprinting improvements? I always think they look cool, but I'd never give them a crack without being properly coached.

No, just playing at it by amusing myself with a mix of bodybuilding and powerlifting. I've very little aptitude for it but I enjoy it. Not done any Olympic lifting. With the sprint stuff I do think there is a little carry-over with the weights - some of that is from getting the body generally more strong/cohesive but tbh I think I will struggle to get my 100m under 15s for example because I am really a natural LWT and not a HWT. Also not THAT tall. Think age is a bit against me too for sprint stuff. That said, I have neglected the ergo but a block of sprint training soom does interest me. As an side, I have detrained alot aerobically so might be time to try the beet juice (think that tends to work with people who are fairly untrained, didn't work for me at all when I was cardio fit).

[Dutch]

Could a mistake have been made in the interpretation of the results and the 5% increase in CE, which I am assuming is cycling effiency, was meant as a more efficient cycling style, eg maybe less rpm more wattage per pedal turn? Not a 5% time improvement, which may help at a sprint event, say anything up to 500 meters, so 4 tenths to 4 seconds, but not as gammmo has said over 2 mins plus at 25 miles.

[max_ratcliffe]

Yeah, look I don't think there's anything sinister here. There appears to be an unwarranted extrapolation from some measured performance parameters that demonstrated a clear improvement to another parameter (speed!) that wasn't measured. I suspect a hastily written conclusion to meet a publication deadline (and not in the authors' first language either, although I wish I had the facility in foreign languages that most Scandinavian people have with English).

[MartinSH4321]

...

With deadlifts especially, there's a counter argument about the spinal load in that greater strength will provide more protection against injury. I've often wondered if perhaps leg presses could be quite damaging to rowers as they'd increase the amount of load that we can put into the handle without also strengthening the other parts of the load path. I'm intrigued now as to how much of my DL % I pull on the erg. I must have a proper look at the force curve, but my guess is that I pull a more than that (but then, my DL is pretty feeble).

Anyway, this is just conjecture on my part. I really need to read up on some of the links, but without the background, they take me a while to digest.

Good point Max, I would also expect that, stronger legs but same lower back strength should result in higher injury risk. If you regularly do sprint training you propably build up back strength too when legs get slowly stronger week by week, but doing sprints only infrequent sounds risky under these circumstances.

@ DL%: I don't remember my stats exactly, but during an all-out 100m my average force was around 130kg and max force around 180kg (according to ergdata), 180kg is also the weight I used for heavy DL sets, 6 reps with a few in reserve.
Anyway, there must be big differences between athletes. For example, Strongman Brian Shaw had a DL max of 450kg+ and a 100m PB of 12.8. If I compare these stats with mine, his DL is around double as strong, but his 100m is "only" ca. 20% more watts (1335 vs. 1113W), so his average and max force on the C2 compared to his DL max are propably much lower than mine. My guess: the stronger the DL, the bigger the gap as the flywheel still spins fast even with max drag.

[Gammmmo]

Good point Max, I would also expect that, stronger legs but same lower back strength should result in higher injury risk. If you regularly do sprint training you propably build up back strength too when legs get slowly stronger week by week, but doing sprints only infrequent sounds risky under these circumstances.

@ DL%: I don't remember my stats exactly, but during an all-out 100m my average force was around 130kg and max force around 180kg (according to ergdata), 180kg is also the weight I used for heavy DL sets, 6 reps with a few in reserve.
Anyway, there must be big differences between athletes. For example, Strongman Brian Shaw had a DL max of 450kg+ and a 100m PB of 12.8. If I compare these stats with mine, his DL is around double as strong, but his 100m is "only" ca. 20% more watts (1335 vs. 1113W), so his average and max force on the C2 compared to his DL max are propably much lower than mine. My guess: the stronger the DL, the bigger the gap as the flywheel still spins fast even with max drag.

If you rely on the legpress to get that extra strength then yes I think there is a risk as the back isn't developed anywhere near as much, whereas with squats I think it is. I have found plenty of carryover from squats to deads, but nowhere near as much the other way.

Martin - think some of the gap u see c/w Brian Shaw is obvs likely because (I suspect) he isn't well trained on the erg for sprint stuff. You are. What is your 1RM deadlift Martin? Is it also that you've not really pushed it on the deadlifts, thus a further reason for the gap? I am a puny endurance athlete really who has "bulked up" to 83kg and I can deadlift 190kg, whereas you are far more a natural HWT and imagine you could 1RM waaaaay more than me. Also, think there comes a point where extra strength has less carryover anyway to the ergo. Specificity and all that.

EDIT: just saw you stated your 1RM is roughly half BS's.

[MartinSH4321]

Good point Max, I would also expect that, stronger legs but same lower back strength should result in higher injury risk. If you regularly do sprint training you propably build up back strength too when legs get slowly stronger week by week, but doing sprints only infrequent sounds risky under these circumstances.

@ DL%: I don't remember my stats exactly, but during an all-out 100m my average force was around 130kg and max force around 180kg (according to ergdata), 180kg is also the weight I used for heavy DL sets, 6 reps with a few in reserve.
Anyway, there must be big differences between athletes. For example, Strongman Brian Shaw had a DL max of 450kg+ and a 100m PB of 12.8. If I compare these stats with mine, his DL is around double as strong, but his 100m is "only" ca. 20% more watts (1335 vs. 1113W), so his average and max force on the C2 compared to his DL max are propably much lower than mine. My guess: the stronger the DL, the bigger the gap as the flywheel still spins fast even with max drag.

If you rely on the legpress to get that extra strength then yes I think there is a risk as the back isn't developed anywhere near as much, whereas with squats I think it is. I have found plenty of carryover from squats to deads, but nowhere near as much the other way.

Martin - think some of the gap u see c/w Brian Shaw is obvs likely because (I suspect) he isn't well trained on the erg for sprint stuff. You are. What is your 1RM deadlift Martin? Is it also that you've not really pushed it on the deadlifts, thus a further reason for the gap? I am a puny endurance athlete really who has "bulked up" to 83kg and I can deadlift 190kg, whereas you are far more a natural HWT and imagine you could 1RM waaaaay more than me. Also, think there comes a point where extra strength has less carryover anyway to the ergo. Specificity and all that.

EDIT: just saw you stated your 1RM is roughly half BS's.

Yeah, I meant the legpress, squats trains the lower back enough for sure!

You're right, specific sprint training for the erg makes a big difference, but I think even with a very good sprint prep his gap between max/average C2 force and DL max will be much bigger than for most others. And looking at his effort I think he did a good job, definitely wasn't unprepared when he did his WR attempt.

[hjs]

Good point Max, I would also expect that, stronger legs but same lower back strength should result in higher injury risk. If you regularly do sprint training you propably build up back strength too when legs get slowly stronger week by week, but doing sprints only infrequent sounds risky under these circumstances.

@ DL%: I don't remember my stats exactly, but during an all-out 100m my average force was around 130kg and max force around 180kg (according to ergdata), 180kg is also the weight I used for heavy DL sets, 6 reps with a few in reserve.
Anyway, there must be big differences between athletes. For example, Strongman Brian Shaw had a DL max of 450kg+ and a 100m PB of 12.8. If I compare these stats with mine, his DL is around double as strong, but his 100m is "only" ca. 20% more watts (1335 vs. 1113W), so his average and max force on the C2 compared to his DL max are propably much lower than mine. My guess: the stronger the DL, the bigger the gap as the flywheel still spins fast even with max drag.

If you rely on the legpress to get that extra strength then yes I think there is a risk as the back isn't developed anywhere near as much, whereas with squats I think it is. I have found plenty of carryover from squats to deads, but nowhere near as much the other way.

Martin - think some of the gap u see c/w Brian Shaw is obvs likely because (I suspect) he isn't well trained on the erg for sprint stuff. You are. What is your 1RM deadlift Martin? Is it also that you've not really pushed it on the deadlifts, thus a further reason for the gap? I am a puny endurance athlete really who has "bulked up" to 83kg and I can deadlift 190kg, whereas you are far more a natural HWT and imagine you could 1RM waaaaay more than me. Also, think there comes a point where extra strength has less carryover anyway to the ergo. Specificity and all that.

EDIT: just saw you stated your 1RM is roughly half BS's.

Brian first never does row, give him 6 weeks and he will blow his pb out of the water.

And second, the man does not fit on the erg, its way to small, if he had more room he could use his body much better, his legs can’t do much at all. No room to move.