Endurance erging - A place to discuss 42, 50, 100k upwards.

[Dangerscouse]

Great info in this thread, and deepy impressed by the distances you guys are racing. I (a 60 yr old LW) have started training for a marathon. Five months back I did a PB on an hour-of-power (reached 15120 m), and based on that pace I am aiming for a sub 3hr (stretch target a 2:55 h:m) marathon.

Now the thing is: I tend to row with quite a low stroke rate that corresponds with an SPI = 10 W.min/stroke. For instance, the 1 hr time trial I did at 21 spm. However, when I train at marathon pace my stroke rate drops to 17 spm. This makes sense from SPI perspective (SPI remains at 10 W.min/strooke), but I wonder if this is a suboptimal rating. Is 17 spm too low for marathon distance? To optimize my time on the marathon, should I increase my rating (while somewhat dropping my SPI)?

Appreciate your views!

Imo, there is no general optimal stroke rate: as Glenn says it's all about finding what is your best, and most efficient stroke rate

I'd guess you would be faster if you rated higher, but that is a guess as an FM is a long way so there's a lot of room for things to change as you progress. Personally I have found r22-24 is ideal for me, but I'd also do an Hour of Power at r28-30 so it's not comparable.

[whp4]

Great info in this thread, and deepy impressed by the distances you guys are racing. I (a 60 yr old LW) have started training for a marathon. Five months back I did a PB on an hour-of-power (reached 15120 m), and based on that pace I am aiming for a sub 3hr (stretch target a 2:55 h:m) marathon.

Now the thing is: I tend to row with quite a low stroke rate that corresponds with an SPI = 10 W.min/stroke. For instance, the 1 hr time trial I did at 21 spm. However, when I train at marathon pace my stroke rate drops to 17 spm. This makes sense from SPI perspective (SPI remains at 10 W.min/strooke), but I wonder if this is a suboptimal rating. Is 17 spm too low for marathon distance? To optimize my time on the marathon, should I increase my rating (while somewhat dropping my SPI)?

Appreciate your views!

What sort of a drag factor are you using? Get the number from the monitor, the number on the scale next to the lever is not reliable for comparisons. I’m guessing you are using a high drag, and that if you spent some time gradually moving to a lower drag (where the flywheel slows less rapidly) your stroke rate would increase and so would your ability to keep up a brisk pace for a long distance. Whatever adjustments you make should be gradual, and lived with for a while before the marathon attempt!

[MudSweatAndYears]

Thanks for the replies. Yes, I guess the slogan "different folks different strokes" does apply. I will soon do a half marathon and that will tell me if this low stroke rate indeed does work for me also for longer duartions.

What sort of a drag factor are you using? Get the number from the monitor, the number on the scale next to the lever is not reliable for comparisons. I’m guessing you are using a high drag, and that if you spent some time gradually moving to a lower drag (where the flywheel slows less rapidly) your stroke rate would increase and so would your ability to keep up a brisk pace for a long distance. Whatever adjustments you make should be gradual, and lived with for a while before the marathon attempt!

Good idea to try a lower drag factor. However, it is currently at 102 and that is already quite low. Might try lowering it a bit more.

[whp4]

Thanks for the replies. Yes, I guess the slogan "different folks different strokes" does apply. I will soon do a half marathon and that will tell me if this low stroke rate indeed does work for me also for longer duartions.

What sort of a drag factor are you using? Get the number from the monitor, the number on the scale next to the lever is not reliable for comparisons. I’m guessing you are using a high drag, and that if you spent some time gradually moving to a lower drag (where the flywheel slows less rapidly) your stroke rate would increase and so would your ability to keep up a brisk pace for a long distance. Whatever adjustments you make should be gradual, and lived with for a while before the marathon attempt!

Good idea to try a lower drag factor. However, it is currently at 102 and that is already quite low. Might try lowering it a bit more.

If you’re already at 102, I’m not sure it’s going to make much difference. I was figuring maybe you were doing 160+!

Keep us posted, and good luck!

[iain]

In my limited experience, the optimum stroke rate can most easily be identified from what is limiting your current performance. Too low a stroke rate will lead to muscle fatigue, at that DF probably in your quads. Was this what limited your hour? Too high a stroke rate will lead to breathing issues (possibly core muscle fatigue if your core is less fit) or just topping out on cardiac output.

Optimum SR can be trained, so I would say that even if 17SPM is optimum for you at present for FM, rowing at higher SR for say 4-5 x 2k with 2+ min rest between will allow you to rate higher and this should lead to a pace increase.

Best of luck with FM.

- Iain

[Dangerscouse]

Thanks for the replies. Yes, I guess the slogan "different folks different strokes" does apply. I will soon do a half marathon and that will tell me if this low stroke rate indeed does work for me also for longer duartions.

Whilst a HM is a fairly decent measure it really isn't bulletproof as an indication for a FM. So many things evolve and change when you get to circa 32k+, and it is a very apposite piece of advice that you're really just training for the last 10k of a FM.

It's quite common to have to rate up when you're getting tired, and that won't be known until you do circa 30k, but you might be fine. IME, I have managed to get notably better results at r24 than r20, but it does play more to my strengths at this mid-rate.

[GlennUk]

I would add to what others have said, giving something a try, for example a faster SR, may take some getting used to it.

Up until Jan i hadn't done any low HR sessions at low SR to speak of. I found it hard, and now 6 months later all my work is of this type, geared towards rowing 116K 2nd week in September, i know its going to take some adjustment when i drop down to shorter sessions but also know that this kind of wrk will pay dividends for those distances.

Give it a bit of time when considering changes, its unlikely to cause any issues with your technique and 'ability' overall if you take a few weeks to try something different.

[MudSweatAndYears]

Thanks for all the very useful advice!

What is playing a role here is that since I discovered the huge positive effect of a strong leg push, I have focused on my leg drive with hours of erging at low rates. For longer distance work I guess I need to reduce my leg push somewhat thereby allowing for a higher rating and (hopefully) an increase in speed.

In my limited experience, the optimum stroke rate can most easily be identified from what is limiting your current performance. Too low a stroke rate will lead to muscle fatigue, at that DF probably in your quads. Was this what limited your hour? Too high a stroke rate will lead to breathing issues (possibly core muscle fatigue if your core is less fit) or just topping out on cardiac output.

This is very useful. I would say it is likely the case that indeed muscle fatigue is limiting my 1hr+ performance. (It is certainly not cardio/breathing limitations.)

Based on all the advice, I will start experimenting with higher stroke rates. The challenge for me is achieving my ‘17 spm wattage’ at a significantly higher rating, while maintaining a healthy leg drive. Will need some practising, I guess.
I have already started trying a lower drag factor, but that in itself will not make me reach really higher ratings: by reducing the drag factor to 96, I still barely reach 18 spm.

[iain]

The challenge for me is achieving my ‘17 spm wattage’ at a significantly higher rating, while maintaining a healthy leg drive. Will need some practising, I guess.

I have already started trying a lower drag factor, but that in itself will not make me reach really higher ratings: by reducing the drag factor to 96, I still barely reach 18 spm.

The key is to produce an efficient stroke. at low SPM it is normal to extend the leanback and pull a little higher. What you want for distance is to get the most work out of the least muscular effort. By not doing maximal strokes you don't need so much recovery and so the slide doesn't need to be exceptionally slow, just an easy continuous recovery. You won't produce quite the work per stroke, but the decline should be less than the increase in the number of strokes. As power (Watts) is the product of the 2, this should increase a little at the same effort level. You may find that it helps to ignore pace on longer rows at first, just concentrating an efficient stroke at a higher rating, say 22SPM at first. It is relatively easy to later push harder to get closer to the work per stroke you do at lower ratings. There may be some adjustment to breathing required. I can row at 1 breath per minute at lighted pressure, but need to take it up to 2 for normal work. The trouble is that my body allows me to continue at the slower breathing until it -has a build up of carbon dioxide when I will want to pant (losing the rhythm of breathing and hence the availability of diaphragm etc. to efficiently transfer the drive to the handle) rather than smoothly transition to 2 strokes per minute. As a result I have to conciously switch.

HTH

[GlennUk]

The key is to produce an efficient stroke.

Iain makes an important point,

it is not merely enough to move up and down the slide pulling the handle but the stroke should IMHO be smooth and regular. Force - Mass x Acceleration, and a short burst of effort can move a mass, a longer but more continuous force applied over a longer period can do the same, or at least this is how it seems to me.

Having spent a lot of time concentrating on pace/HR, for me trying to be smooth seems to yield benefits in consistency which in turn results in a higher pace if i try to be smooth rather than exploding out of the catch.

There's also the advantage of staying on whatever pace you want, rather than fluctuating up and down, which IME takes more effort to maintain a particular average pace due to constant changes in input, especially where the deviation form target is significant.

I am not suggesting that simply being smooth can break world records, merely that being so, is likely to generate a more consistent pace at whatever stroke rate and effort you put into rowing.

I suspect the OTW rowers spend a lot of time delivering power to ensure stability as well as pace to avoid falling over, keeping rhythm with their crew and not falling over (could of course be wrong, if any OTW wants to correct me please feel free), none of those problems are evident directly on the erg.

Finally, something else that i found for myself is that if i try to get a long stroke as opposed to making sure i am smooth and consistent, that i have a tendency to overreach coming into the catch. The nett effect is that as i lean forward i restrict my diaphragm, which in turn reduces performance. To combat this i have raised my feet two notches and try to ensure that as i move into the catch position that i am not leaning against my thighs.

[max_ratcliffe]

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Finally, something else that i found for myself is that if i try to get a long stroke as opposed to making sure i am smooth and consistent, that i have a tendency to overreach coming into the catch. The nett effect is that as i lean forward i restrict my diaphragm, which in turn reduces performance. To combat this i have raised my feet two notches and try to ensure that as i move into the catch position that i am not leaning against my thighs.

Everyone is different, but I find this quite interesting. I overcompress more with higher feet and also round my lumbar spine more.

[GlennUk]

Max,

that's interesting. I realized i was constricting my diaphragm some months ago and it became more evident when training for longer distances to me at least.

Probably worth saying at this point that i have never had anyone look at my technique (until about a month ago when i sent a video to Eddie Fletcher who i am getting some coaching from which was after i had worked this out), i have arrived at where i was, based on nothing more than some years of erging and ignorance.

I had always tried to make sure my strokes were as long as i could make them to maximize the pull, thinking that taller people have longer legs arms etc and are typically faster than shorter rowers, and therefore a longer stroke would be better. I cannot say i realized the affect i was having by reaching forward as far as i could until i started doing a lot of intervals whilst watching my HR/Pace/SR as intently as i need to for the long rows im undertaking.

Initially i just tried not to lean forward too much, but then spent some time searching for info on stroke length and found a piece that suggested foot position should be with ankles approx. in line with the top of the slide rail. This also helps with lower leg position not going over vertical and in my case reduces the tendency to reach too far forward coming into the catch.

It may not be the same for others and does not appear to be the case for you.

[max_ratcliffe]

Max,
<>
Initially i just tried not to lean forward too much, but then spent some time searching for info on stroke length and found a piece that suggested foot position should be with ankles approx. in line with the top of the slide rail. This also helps with lower leg position not going over vertical and in my case reduces the tendency to reach too far forward coming into the catch.

It may not be the same for others and does not appear to be the case for you.

Fair enough. I think this is about right. I thought you meant you had the feet really high (with knees by your ears at the catch ) I moved my feet right down as part of a drill a few months ago and there they've stayed, but they're probably too low now tbh.

High feet can help with sprinting as the force vector is more horizontal but that's the opposite of what we're taking about in this thread.

[pagomichaelh]

Week 14 of the Fisher Plan.

Week before last, when I did the Week 12 plan, I also went out for 1 to 1.5 hours in the six place va'a (outrigger canoe) in the late afternoon Monday/Wednesday/Friday.

Same aerobic system, different sets of muscles.

Major improvement in hitting target watts(distance) with the same heart/stroke parameters last week and this week (so far).

Too bad I don't have a batch of clones to be able to run a control and and experiment group as to the cause!

[GlennUk]

Week 14 of the Fisher Plan.

Week before last, when I did the Week 12 plan, I also went out for 1 to 1.5 hours in the six place va'a (outrigger canoe) in the late afternoon Monday/Wednesday/Friday.

Same aerobic system, different sets of muscles.

Major improvement in hitting target watts(distance) with the same heart/stroke parameters last week and this week (so far).

Too bad I don't have a batch of clones to be able to run a control and and experiment group as to the cause!

HI there, im not familiar with the Fisher Plan (most plans in fact i think there are many!). Is this regarding James Fisher, Southampton Uni?