Endurance erging - A place to discuss 42, 50, 100k upwards.

[iain]

I rate my single 100km as the hardest row I have ever done. I clenched my jaw for much of the latter half and, as a result, couldn't chew for a couple of days and the pain only subsided in 10 days! I was much harder than a 24hr tandem (ie rowing half the time). yes I had problems (did it with only 12 weeks fully concentrated training although only 17 months after the 24hr) and had stomach issues. Personally I wouldn't go over 60km in preparation unless you are intending to push for the best possible time. With the right support a 10km you have been training for would probably be easier than 77km done on your own as "just another session". Going that long takes a lot out of you physically and mentally and I am not sure that you will find it achievable to carry on without extra rest / easier sessions after 60km let alone 77 unless you have a natural disposition for this.

I would agree with Stu that you should mix up the rows a bit. 26 weeks is a long time to do the same types of rows. Also I find mentally it is much easier to face another 10km when you have recently done 10kms at a much quicker pace. Much of the build up is less about distances and more about preparation, so you need to know what drinks you can tolerate (stomach issues I faced were using too concentrated drinks), whether you need to strap your hands, what is the optimum drinking strategy and most of all what pace you should go at. The mental blow from having to lower your pace with a long way to go is really tough to overcome. You should also think about what support you can get as having people around to encourage you through the lows really helps.

Best of luck.

- Iain

[sanbornm]

Wow, I'm floored by the nearly immediate response and the thoughtful comments. Thank you all.

I'll try and provide some more specific information in case that helps. I'm 45 years old, 6"2' 190lbs. I have used the erg frequently for general conditioning over the last 11 years and have some on the water rowing experience. I have done 10km pieces a handful of times, and have done lots of intervals and shorter stuff. My 10km time is usually ~37 min, but I'd have to back and check my log book.

So, who knows, maybe novice isn't the right descriptor, but in terms of endurance rowing MPx is absolutely correct....I have no idea what I've set myself up for.

My goal is to finish, I have no time in mind. A fast cruising pace for me that I would hold for 10km is ~1:57/500
I was imagining that a 2:15/ 500 would be manageable. I have a bony ass, and the stock C2 seat is a legit torture device. I'll be experimenting with a variety of pads/seat configurations.

Furthest I've rowed before is 10km. I'm not concerned about the 12 km distances at the start of the training plan, but I'm definitely wary of the longer distances.
I do have a heart rate monitor. At present it's just wrist based, but I have a chest strap coming in the next little while. I will plan to do a max HR test in the first week of training.

The plan looks OK, but there are some fairly big jumps in distance. This will be harder than you imagine, so just be prepared for that.

Note taken, I have altered the plan to include a little less wave form and to have a more gradual increase in distance.

Try to include a variety of pace / stroke rate as well: don't keep it all steady state. Some medium-hard paced distances will be helpful, otherwise you can gain resilience, but it has a soft under belly and will be exposed when you need to dig in; and you definitely will need to dig in.

Training your mind is equally, if not more, important as building your base fitness. There are many mind games at play when you get over 60k, especially if you're going at a hard pace. I'd highly recommend that you do a lot of research about that. Good luck.

Good point. I will look to include some intervals after a few weeks of general endurance. Do you have any suggestions for alternatives to include that would fit in with my goals?

I will start researching the phycology aspect. I'm hoping my support team, and the fact that I will be in public doing this for something bigger than myself will pull me through.

I wouldn't go over 60km in preparation unless you are intending to push for the best possible time. With the right support a 10km you have been training for would probably be easier than 77km done on your own as "just another session".

You should also think about what support you can get as having people around to encourage you through the lows really helps.

Thank you. I'll look at dropping the 77 km day. I was concerned that 60 km is still so far from my goal of 100 that I wouldn't know what to expect in the later stages. Sounds like I should just get there when I get there and prepare myself mentally to be able to handle it.

I am going to do the 100km day in a public space. My wife will be there to provide support, along with other members of my gym community. In addition, the plan is to have another rower set up so that people can jump on and row with me, and hopefully provide another avenue for fundraising.

Again, thank you for all the feedback.
Mike

[sanbornm]

Oh, sorry. Two other questions.
I have a friend who is an accomplished rowing coach and he has suggested I consider using slides, primarily for injury prevention. Any thoughts?

And a more specific question, for 100km what kind of drag factor should I be looking to set my rower to?

[whp4]

Oh, sorry. Two other questions.
I have a friend who is an accomplished rowing coach and he has suggested I consider using slides, primarily for injury prevention. Any thoughts?

And a more specific question, for 100km what kind of drag factor should I be looking to set my rower to?

I don’t know if it is necessary to have them, but it has always seemed to me that pieces rowed on slides are easier on the body, and that’s a good thing when doing 100 km! I rowed my 100 km on slides (almost 17 years ago — my butt is still sore ) and would do it that way again if I had the choice. Maybe not an issue for you, but if you are passing the hours by watching TV or videos, rowing on slides results in your head staying pretty much in the same spot, though it is somewhat noisier, and you may want a fan pointed at you, as you don’t get as much cooling air moving over you.

I would not do the slides if you won’t have some time to get used to rowing on them. The same could be said for just about any aspect of this, of course. And that seat…I would take a day and do 3 or 4 steady state 8-10k pieces at the pace you are aiming for, with whatever seat pad you will use, and just sit there in between them so you get some idea of what sitting that long on that seat is like. I wasn’t trying to go fast (though after 4 or 5 hours on the seat you’ll be wondering just how fast you can go so you can get off it sooner!) but even though I’d done several marathons, and had worked out some seat cushioning for longer rows, I really was not prepared for just how uncomfortable it was by the end of the row, even with a substantial amount of butt muscle. Someone can bring you a soft drink or energy gel or something like that if you run short on fuel, but recovering from a “butt mutiny” is going to be tough. Be prepared!

[ampire]

Oh, sorry. Two other questions.
I have a friend who is an accomplished rowing coach and he has suggested I consider using slides, primarily for injury prevention. Any thoughts?

And a more specific question, for 100km what kind of drag factor should I be looking to set my rower to?

Slides are awesome, though if you are new to them you might need some time, maybe two weeks possibly to get used to them and carry the same splits you had without. After I got my set of slides, I have only rarely rowed without them. Over the last year and a half, I have done almost 4 million meters on them. Feels much easier on the body and more enjoyable. It's easier to watch television because your head stays in one place, and a fan can be placed so you are always in the air stream.

[iain]

Never rowed on slides, re padding beyond a C2 pad I have only ever added a small towel (more for moisture absorption than padding). Others disagree, I know one much more experienced ultra-rower who uses a 4 inch thick piece of foamed rubber! Personally the I believe the pain I have felt was not due to sitting on a hard seat, but from my glutes becoming hard as they tire. Your sit bones move over your glutes and that gives a sensation like someone is digging a knife into you and moving it backwards and forwards with each stroke!

Re DF again people vary, but I would recommend 15 below what you have used for all training except practice rows. That way you need less power to complete your normal rowing stroke and your legs will tire more slowly, CV shouldn't be an issue at the appropriate pace, so having that pick up the slack is a good thing given that your legs are going to be very sore for several hours!

Re intervals, I would recommend normal mid-distance intervals such as 5 x 2k or 4 x 2.5k. I like to add a waterfall of 5kr5', 4kr4', 3kr3', 2kr2', 1k with each interval at 1S/500m faster than the last (usually speed up a bit more than this on the last 2). These should be 95% plus efforts to push towards your HRmax. But the most important thing is to do sessions you enjoy as you will be spending a long time on the rower. i find the last month is easy to motivate (fear of the consequences of not training), but keeping going in the previous 5 months requires you to be enjoying at least some of your training.

Best of luck

Iain

[GlennUk]

I started on the Eddie Fletcher plan, and am now on the 8th week. I've seen a performance improvement of 3.8% from the beginning to now, so at least for right now, I'd recommend it.

He assumes that you're in good physical condition to start with, and the way his plan is structured, it helps with the most important part, the mental aspect. I did a double double+ century (436 miles) when I was in my 30s, and it was the mind, not the body, that had the hardest time of things, so don't overlook how important that is.

It's pretty pricey, but it seems well thought out.

best,

Ive just finished the EF MArathon plan and did 60k yesterday, previous longest was HM. My plan is to do 115972m end of the year so will embark on the 100k plan shortly.

The mental path for me was the biggest thing, be confident i could a)row at a pace based on a %HR, and b) that i could deal with any issues that arose, e.g. blisters, pain in the ass, etc

I wont say i thought of everything but i tried to deal with all the issues mentally and how i would cope if they arsoe, e.g. hitting the wall. My plan was to ease up, drink eat and work through it, have no idea of it would have worked as it was, it didn't happen for me yesterday, another day it may.

Id like to think of the EF plan as cost and value, i found it invaluable.

[GlennUk]

As i said, yesterday did my 60k, having followed the Eddie Fletcther marathon plan since the end of Jan.

Obviously 60k is almost 50% farther than a marathon so in deciding on 'pace' that was to be determined by my HR and given i am planning on almost 116k towards the end of the year used this as a warm-up for the later row (will now pick up with the EF 100k plan in prep for that. Hoped for a pace of c.2:24.0-2:26.0 based on recent performances in training with a HR 80% of max, however when i set off my HR was high form the start and never seemed to settle, so trusting my plan stuck at 80% HRmax.

Id set up the PM5 for variable intervals, a FM, followed by 7905m to give me an accurate time for the 50k and then a final, 10k.

THe pace was fine, spent all my time concentrating on the monitor keeping HR in check with fluctuations up to high 140s against a target of 141bpm.

Spent a lot of time leading up to the 30k mark wondering if i was going to hit the wall. Never came. Cant work out if i was going to slow or whether the prep was better than i hoped for. HAd spent quite a bit of time in the lead up looking at my nutrition and whilst i didn't carb load in any formal sense, i did enjoy my food in the week leading up to the session with plenty of brown rice, pasta and whole grains plus protein shakes.

My pace was 2:21.5 with HR 146bpm at the finish so higher than desired but i felt fine.

THe going felt a bit tougher for the 7805m, i think more psychological than anything else and my finishing HR was 150 so higher again. Entering the final 10k i upped the pace somewhat and this leg came in at 2:26.1 finishing HR of 169. Found the final 10k tough and had to grit my teeth for the last 3k.

A lot is said about drinking and feeding during such efforts, i drank mostly every 30 mins but never got anywhere near the kinds of values that are often mentioned in the literature. Nibbled on broken cereal bars and a banana at the end of the 1st leg.

I had to get of to use the loo (damn bladder) and had to get up to adjust the seat pad, but other than that it was 5 hours of rowing. Minor discomfort, nothing to write home about and certainly not the kind of agony i have experienced previously when less well prepared.

I was worried about sore/blisters on my fingers, someone form The Diamonds FB group suggested putting tubular bandage over the handle, it worked for me. No gloves, no plaster and best of all no blisters.

FInal time for the 60K was 5hours 1 minute 33.7 seconds. I had hoped between 4-5 hours and i think i could have done better, but the objective was a) to finish, b) to do it in a single sitting without any resits and c) to be happy with my performance.

Well i finished, i did it without having to stop to rest and i am happy with my performance.

Finally i was, then worried about recovery, drank 3 measures of my protein shake and ate and snacked all evening, don't fee; too sore at all, fortunately. I have the odd pain but nothing to write home about. I would usually expect the 2nd day to be worse, but don't feel too worried right now.

NExt thing take a week off and then do some gentle rowing before getting into the 100k plan i suppose.

[Dangerscouse]

As i said, yesterday did my 60k, having followed the Eddie Fletcther marathon plan since the end of Jan.

Obviously 60k is almost 50% farther than a marathon so in deciding on 'pace' that was to be determined by my HR and given i am planning on almost 116k towards the end of the year used this as a warm-up for the later row (will now pick up with the EF 100k plan in prep for that. Hoped for a pace of c.2:24.0-2:26.0 based on recent performances in training with a HR 80% of max, however when i set off my HR was high form the start and never seemed to settle, so trusting my plan stuck at 80% HRmax.

Id set up the PM5 for variable intervals, a FM, followed by 7905m to give me an accurate time for the 50k and then a final, 10k.

THe pace was fine, spent all my time concentrating on the monitor keeping HR in check with fluctuations up to high 140s against a target of 141bpm.

Spent a lot of time leading up to the 30k mark wondering if i was going to hit the wall. Never came. Cant work out if i was going to slow or whether the prep was better than i hoped for. HAd spent quite a bit of time in the lead up looking at my nutrition and whilst i didn't carb load in any formal sense, i did enjoy my food in the week leading up to the session with plenty of brown rice, pasta and whole grains plus protein shakes.

My pace was 2:21.5 with HR 146bpm at the finish so higher than desired but i felt fine.

THe going felt a bit tougher for the 7805m, i think more psychological than anything else and my finishing HR was 150 so higher again. Entering the final 10k i upped the pace somewhat and this leg came in at 2:26.1 finishing HR of 169. Found the final 10k tough and had to grit my teeth for the last 3k.

A lot is said about drinking and feeding during such efforts, i drank mostly every 30 mins but never got anywhere near the kinds of values that are often mentioned in the literature. Nibbled on broken cereal bars and a banana at the end of the 1st leg.

I had to get of to use the loo (damn bladder) and had to get up to adjust the seat pad, but other than that it was 5 hours of rowing. Minor discomfort, nothing to write home about and certainly not the kind of agony i have experienced previously when less well prepared.

I was worried about sore/blisters on my fingers, someone form The Diamonds FB group suggested putting tubular bandage over the handle, it worked for me. No gloves, no plaster and best of all no blisters.

FInal time for the 60K was 5hours 1 minute 33.7 seconds. I had hoped between 4-5 hours and i think i could have done better, but the objective was a) to finish, b) to do it in a single sitting without any resits and c) to be happy with my performance.

Well i finished, i did it without having to stop to rest and i am happy with my performance.

Finally i was, then worried about recovery, drank 3 measures of my protein shake and ate and snacked all evening, don't fee; too sore at all, fortunately. I have the odd pain but nothing to write home about. I would usually expect the 2nd day to be worse, but don't feel too worried right now.

NExt thing take a week off and then do some gentle rowing before getting into the 100k plan i suppose.

Well done Glenn. IME, your HR can be higher due to it not being a good day or just nerves: 60k is a very daunting challenge even if you've done an FM. This higher HR can be an issue if you let it bother you, but if your RPE is where it should be, I find there's not much to worry about.

It's worth remembering that the 60k was a stepping stone to your ultimate goal, so don't let any disappointment spoil your result.

[Dangerscouse]

Good point. I will look to include some intervals after a few weeks of general endurance. Do you have any suggestions for alternatives to include that would fit in with my goals?

I will start researching the phycology aspect. I'm hoping my support team, and the fact that I will be in public doing this for something bigger than myself will pull me through.

I'd recommend doing training in the 85-90% MHR range, and doing things like:

1k x 8 60 secs rest
4 x 8 mins 2-3mins rest
30 mins
10k
3 x 5k 2-3mins rest

Basically you want to push it so you're getting a good training affect, and building some mental resilience to a tough, but not too tough, session. I didn't find that doing any 95-100% MHR sessions was helpful as it was draining, and not very helpful in the bigger picture.

As for psychology books, I'd thoroughly recommend Dr Steve Peters 'Chimp Paradox'; James Clear 'Atomic Habits', Rich Diviney 'The Attributes', Ross Edgley 'The Art of Resilience' & David Goggins 'You Can't Hurt Me' (I've not read this yet, but I have heard good things about it)

[GlennUk]

Well done Glenn. IME, your HR can be higher due to it not being a good day or just nerves: 60k is a very daunting challenge even if you've done an FM. This higher HR can be an issue if you let it bother you, but if your RPE is where it should be, I find there's not much to worry about.

It's worth remembering that the 60k was a stepping stone to your ultimate goal, so don't let any disappointment spoil your result.

Stu

thanks for the encouragement, in truth i am not disappointed overall, the plan was always to work to HR so as much as i would have liked a better pace/time, in truth i did what i set out to do.

I think 'pre-match' nerves would have played a part.

Id also turned off my work phone and emails for two days leading up to the event so i didnt have anything on my mind. Stupidly i did look at some emails and had one in particular playing on my mind for a bit in the early stages, but managed to pusch that to the back of my mind after a bit. I wont make that mistake next time and will impose an neforced ban in email traffic for a week in advance, and stick by it!!

RPE wise, apart form the last 5k, i felt in total control, and surprising as it seems to many, 5hrs odd on the erg watching the monitor was pretty much all absorbing. When my mind wandered, i found the pace/HR did too, unsurprising i suppose which is what i have found pretty much for the whole of my training so far.

This perhaps links in to discussions we touched on recently about how our psychology can affect our performance, as you say could be nerves, given it was almost 3x my longest previous role, being truthful there was an element in my mind that made me unsure if i could do the distance in one sitting which was a big part for me of the challenge and a very small part that despite following the Eddie Fletcher plan whether i would make it at all. As you i am sure know, EF does not advocate ergin the long distances that are often suggested for marathon/long distance ergs training plans.

I had no doubt i could cover the distance if i did it in saty 3 discrete batches over a day, but that wasn't the challenge, it was to row continuously and whilst i had to get off for a pee and re-position my seat pad, in my mind this did not constitute 'resting'.

All in all, having reflected on the event i am very pleased and feel ready to move onto the next stage.

[Dangerscouse]

Well done Glenn. IME, your HR can be higher due to it not being a good day or just nerves: 60k is a very daunting challenge even if you've done an FM. This higher HR can be an issue if you let it bother you, but if your RPE is where it should be, I find there's not much to worry about.

It's worth remembering that the 60k was a stepping stone to your ultimate goal, so don't let any disappointment spoil your result.

Stu

thanks for the encouragement, in truth i am not disappointed overall, the plan was always to work to HR so as much as i would have liked a better pace/time, in truth i did what i set out to do.

I think 'pre-match' nerves would have played a part.

Id also turned off my work phone and emails for two days leading up to the event so i didnt have anything on my mind. Stupidly i did look at some emails and had one in particular playing on my mind for a bit in the early stages, but managed to pusch that to the back of my mind after a bit. I wont make that mistake next time and will impose an neforced ban in email traffic for a week in advance, and stick by it!!

RPE wise, apart form the last 5k, i felt in total control, and surprising as it seems to many, 5hrs odd on the erg watching the monitor was pretty much all absorbing. When my mind wandered, i found the pace/HR did too, unsurprising i suppose which is what i have found pretty much for the whole of my training so far.

This perhaps links in to discussions we touched on recently about how our psychology can affect our performance, as you say could be nerves, given it was almost 3x my longest previous role, being truthful there was an element in my mind that made me unsure if i could do the distance in one sitting which was a big part for me of the challenge and a very small part that despite following the Eddie Fletcher plan whether i would make it at all. As you i am sure know, EF does not advocate ergin the long distances that are often suggested for marathon/long distance ergs training plans.

I had no doubt i could cover the distance if i did it in saty 3 discrete batches over a day, but that wasn't the challenge, it was to row continuously and whilst i had to get off for a pee and re-position my seat pad, in my mind this did not constitute 'resting'.

All in all, having reflected on the event i am very pleased and feel ready to move onto the next stage.

I didn't know Eddie doesn't advocate doing longer distances, as I just cobbled together my own training from instinct and intuition. I've never followed a set plan, even though I had the FM plan that Eddie produced.

Stopping for the toilet, and to adjust the seat pad, is not resting in any way: that is to be expected.

I find that interesting that your pace & HR wandered when you didn't watch the monitor, as I don't have that issue, especially for HR which stays lower if I don't watch the monitor.

[whp4]

Id set up the PM5 for variable intervals, a FM, followed by 7905m to give me an accurate time for the 50k and then a final, 10k.

FM is 42,195 m, so you need a 7805 m 2nd interval to get your 50 km split. Go back and do it again until you get it right!

[GlennUk]

I didn't know Eddie doesn't advocate doing longer distances, as I just cobbled together my own training from instinct and intuition. I've never followed a set plan, even though I had the FM plan that Eddie produced.

The longest session on the Marathon plan is 90 minutes which for me is c.19000m and without checking on the 100k plan 180 minutes. One of the things i was 'concerned about' was the fact that unlike more conventional approaches with ever increasing distance closer to full distance pre the marathon was nervous about this element of the plan.

However, Eddie is an experienced coach with a number of notables under his 'care' James Cracknel (40-49 GB marathon record ), Graham Benton (30-39 GB marathon record ), Rod Chinn 60-69 (GB marathon and WR 100k record holder) to name a few.

I find that interesting that your pace & HR wandered when you didn't watch the monitor, as I don't have that issue, especially for HR which stays lower if I don't watch the monitor.

Whilst ive had an erg since end of 2009, after the 1st three years it gathered dust pretty much until May last year.

My total metres is just over 5M which by erging standards is not much given the timeframe involved (2.2m were last season) so perhaps it is my relative lack of experience and also trying to row at relatively low rates for such a long period of time means i have to concentrate on both my HR and my spm to avoid the catastrophe of hitting the wall half way through.

[GlennUk]

Id set up the PM5 for variable intervals, a FM, followed by 7905m to give me an accurate time for the 50k and then a final, 10k.

FM is 42,195 m, so you need a 7805 m 2nd interval to get your 50 km split. Go back and do it again until you get it right!

Funny you should say that, when i row, i have a tv where i put up my intended targets for pace, hr for each interval.

For the 2nd leg i wrote down 8805 instead of 7805, which i didn't notice until after i had sat down and started rowing, i was about 30k mark when i realised i had got it wrong. The next thought was did i programme the pm5 right and what would i do if i didn't?

I decided that if i had programmed it wrong id find out in a bit and id row the extra 1k anyway.

Fortunately i didn't, just another bloody typo, doh!