Endurance erging - A place to discuss 42, 50, 100k upwards.

[Dangerscouse]

I am eating so much, it's the only thing that my wife & I regularly argue over (in reality it's bickering, and limited, as I'm too busy eating). You literally turn into a furnace when you regularly do long distances.

Protein shakes are essential along with carb drinks for the long rows.

I haven't tried carb drinks, been trying to balance dietary needs using foods apart from the protein shakes. After the 60k i am moving onto training for just under 116k, base do nhtis experience there is no doubt i will have to take nutrition much more seriously if i am to complete the row (note i didnt say in any particular form or time, just complete it).

When I say carb drinks, I mean diluted fruit juice with sugar and a pinch of salt. Don't be fooled into buying sports drinks, as usually they are too sugary.

Your weight loss will probably be evolving as you progress, and you'll not notice it at first. I'd be surprised if you don't lose any weight with the distances you'll be doing, but it might not be significant as we are all different and your age will count against you, as weight loss is harder as we get older.

[iain]

I struggle to keep my weight up whenever doing 100km+ per week. The time lost getting ready to row (HR rises for a couple of hours after eating) and rowing leaves too few hours to get the calories in. I found the only way to bridge the gap was to add maltodextrin to protein shakes. Not ideal and may make me prone to type 2 diabetes!

Getting ready for FM next weekend on little training. Managed a 90% HM on Saturday and struggled through a 50km the week before with 2 breaks. Any thoughts on reasonable target HR for first half of the FM? hit over 95% on the 50km before the first stop so was clearly going too quickly! Also not sure how much improvement the 50km, 2 HMs and 2 long slow rows in the 2 weeks running up to this will have recovered my fitness.

[GlennUk]

When I say carb drinks, I mean diluted fruit juice with sugar and a pinch of salt. Don't be fooled into buying sports drinks, as usually they are too sugary.

Your weight loss will probably be evolving as you progress, and you'll not notice it at first. I'd be surprised if you don't lose any weight with the distances you'll be doing, but it might not be significant as we are all different and your age will count against you, as weight loss is harder as we get older.

Thanks appreciated, i understand when erging i do keep a similar drink although prefer squash with added salt/sugar as suggested too. I haven't bought any sports drinks having read your suggestions on here, plus EF comments in a similar fashion too.

[GlennUk]

Getting ready for FM next weekend on little training. Managed a 90% HM on Saturday and struggled through a 50km the week before with 2 breaks. Any thoughts on reasonable target HR for first half of the FM? hit over 95% on the 50km before the first stop so was clearly going too quickly! Also not sure how much improvement the 50km, 2 HMs and 2 long slow rows in the 2 weeks running up to this will have recovered my fitness.

Ian,

I am a novice at this and no doubt others will have their views, if you know your HRmax then the advice i have is that for a FM max effort will be achieved and sustainable (subject to proper prep) at between 85-92.5% HRmax value.

Clearly the pace may vary if you row to HR (as i intend to) my prep puts me in the region of 2:24.0 for the 60K at c.80% HRmax. This is the region i intend to do the 115K for and as my 60k over the weekend of 23/5 is in prep for the longer row intended to focus on practicing for the longer event. In truth it is also about building confidence to take on the 115972m i have set myself.

I think the general view is better to start out 'slow' and speed up towards the end rather than fly and die. I assume form your [post you routinely wear a HRM so i woul dbe guided by that and reduce pace to maintain a HR level in the region 85% and adjust pace up or down depending on how it is going for you.

Hopefully others with much more experience than me wil chip in with their views too.

[Dangerscouse]

Getting ready for FM next weekend on little training. Managed a 90% HM on Saturday and struggled through a 50km the week before with 2 breaks. Any thoughts on reasonable target HR for first half of the FM? hit over 95% on the 50km before the first stop so was clearly going too quickly! Also not sure how much improvement the 50km, 2 HMs and 2 long slow rows in the 2 weeks running up to this will have recovered my fitness.

I'm not the best person to advise as my HR doesn't get too high for a long distance, but I'm sure that I've read that averaging 85% is to be expected. Personally I'd like it to be lower than that for the first half, and allow for some cardiac drift.

Having said that I have seen some people manage for a long time with HR at 90%, so it seems like it's very subjective. I find an FM is dictated more by intuition and perception than HR.

When you say next weekend, do you mean 15th/16th or the weekend after? Semantics are quite often misleading with 'this weekend / next weekend.' It sounds like you need some rest and recovery if you're struggling a bit on a HM, but it's obviously predicated on if you just want to complete it, or if you want to get a PB. As you know the second half of a FM is no comparison to the first half.

[GlennUk]

I'm not the best person to advise as my HR doesn't get too high for a long distance, but I'm sure that I've read that averaging 85% is to be expected. Personally I'd like it to be lower than that for the first half, and allow for some cardiac drift.

Good point re HR drift, it will likely increase during the row, i understand that in some cases it may als oreduce towards the end of long duration exercises too, i dont have any values about that but just something to be aware of perhaps.

Having said that I have seen some people manage for a long time with HR at 90%, so it seems like it's very subjective. I find an FM is dictated more by intuition and perception than HR.

Something occurred to me reading this is that 'knowing' your HRmax value is important, when i started on my plan i did a test, my HRmax value achieved was significantly lower than i had observed during regular training and i found that RPE during exercises following the plan i ham using were significantly different. It therefore adjusted the value i was using based on historical records (althog ui stopped short of using the absolute max value i had seen recorded historically).

The point is, that a) the HRmax value may have an absolute upper limit for an individual, but that value can change over time and depend on how/when you measure it. When i started erging 2009, i am sure my HRmax was c.19x, now its closer to 17x (although max value i have seen recorded by HRM is 181. The test i did recorded a lower value of 169bpm

[iain]

I'm not the best person to advise as my HR doesn't get too high for a long distance, but I'm sure that I've read that averaging 85% is to be expected. Personally I'd like it to be lower than that for the first half, and allow for some cardiac drift.

Good point re HR drift, it will likely increase during the row, i understand that in some cases it may als oreduce towards the end of long duration exercises too, i dont have any values about that but just something to be aware of perhaps.

Having said that I have seen some people manage for a long time with HR at 90%, so it seems like it's very subjective. I find an FM is dictated more by intuition and perception than HR.

Something occurred to me reading this is that 'knowing' your HRmax value is important, when i started on my plan i did a test, my HRmax value achieved was significantly lower than i had observed during regular training and i found that RPE during exercises following the plan i ham using were significantly different. It therefore adjusted the value i was using based on historical records (althog ui stopped short of using the absolute max value i had seen recorded historically).

The point is, that a) the HRmax value may have an absolute upper limit for an individual, but that value can change over time and depend on how/when you measure it. When i started erging 2009, i am sure my HRmax was c.19x, now its closer to 17x (although max value i have seen recorded by HRM is 181. The test i did recorded a lower value of 169bpm

No HR test is perfect as it relies on us pushing to the max against any inherent "limiter". As fitness increases stroke volume increases so it gets harder to get close to HR max. The question I don't know is whether that max is still attainable. HRmax does of course decline with age.

I find HR drift for FM less than HM as HR drops when you drink and I don't drink during an HM. More worryingly, on very long rows (50km plus), I think HR fatigue actually reduces attainable maximum, so while a spring finish will usually reach 96%+ for me, this is not possible on an ultra (or is this just inability to push tired muscles to their limits?)

[Dangerscouse]

Something occurred to me reading this is that 'knowing' your HRmax value is important, when i started on my plan i did a test, my HRmax value achieved was significantly lower than i had observed during regular training and i found that RPE during exercises following the plan i ham using were significantly different. It therefore adjusted the value i was using based on historical records (althog ui stopped short of using the absolute max value i had seen recorded historically).

The point is, that a) the HRmax value may have an absolute upper limit for an individual, but that value can change over time and depend on how/when you measure it. When i started erging 2009, i am sure my HRmax was c.19x, now its closer to 17x (although max value i have seen recorded by HRM is 181. The test i did recorded a lower value of 169bpm

This is possibly where I'm an outlier, but despite my MHR being 176, I can really struggle when it's only at circa 145-150, albeit this is at r20-22. On other sessions, for example a 60 mins TT at r28-30, I have happily rowed at 90% of MHR for about 25 mins.

No idea why, but my HR is very rarely my limiter, especially for the longer distances, despite it feeling like an overwhelming effort. Historically I used to get derailed when my HR was getting too high: now I'm bemused as to why it isn't getting too high.

[GlennUk]

This is possibly where I'm an outlier, but despite my MHR being 176, I can really struggle when it's only at circa 145-150, albeit this is at r20-22. On other sessions, for example a 60 mins TT at r28-30, I have happily rowed at 90% of MHR for about 25 mins.

No idea why, but my HR is very rarely my limiter, especially for the longer distances, despite it feeling like an overwhelming effort. Historically I used to get derailed when my HR was getting too high: now I'm bemused as to why it isn't getting too high.

I can't begin to explain the whys and wherefores, but perhaps its proof that there is no such thing as 'normal' and that natural variations mean we may have different experiences.

[Dangerscouse]

I can't begin to explain the whys and wherefores, but perhaps its proof that there is no such thing as 'normal' and that natural variations mean we may have different experiences.

Yep. Chase the question mark, not the exclamation point and you'll find so many differences that may work for you compared to others. Every single session is unique in its own way.

It's all too common to seek out a ready made plan that if you follow it, will be a panacea. In reality, it's always different strokes for different folks.

[sanbornm]

Hi all,
I am brand new to the forum, but have come for a specific purpose. I'm a novice rower, and I intend to spend the next ~6 months training to complete a 100km attempt to raise money for glioblastoma research in memoriam of my friend who died at the age of 44, 17 months after diagnosis and 19 months after the birth of his second child.
I have been reading the forums and have learned a lot with regards to hydration and planning for the event day. What I'm looking for now is assistance in developing a training plan. My draft training plan is below (weeks in column 1 days in row 1). Ideally I would like to row 4 days a week, so that I can maintain my family life, as well as active recovery activities. Would anyone be willing to provide comment or suggestion on my plan, or offer an alternative?
Thank you kindly,
Mike

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Week Total
1 12 12 REST 12 18 REST REST 54
2 12 12 REST 12 23 REST REST 59
3 12 15 REST 12 15 REST REST 54
4 12 15 REST 12 35 REST REST 74
5 12 19 REST 12 38 REST REST 81
6 12 19 REST 12 27 REST REST 70
7 12 19 REST 12 46 REST REST 89
8 12 19 REST 12 50 REST REST 93
9 12 23 REST 12 23 REST REST 70
10 12 27 REST 15 58 REST REST 112
11 15 19 REST 15 20 REST REST 69
12 15 23 REST 15 20 REST REST 73
13 15 27 REST 15 15 REST REST 72
14 15 35 REST 15 18 REST REST 83
15 19 38 REST 19 20 REST REST 96
16 19 42 REST 19 25 REST REST 105
17 21 30 REST 23 30 REST REST 104
18 21 30 REST 23 40 REST REST 114
19 21 15 REST 19 50 REST REST 105
20 19 30 REST 19 60 REST REST 128
21 15 20 REST 15 77 REST REST 127
22 15 18 REST 19 50 REST REST 102
23 15 18 REST 15 46 REST REST 94
24 19 23 REST 12 35 REST REST 89
25 12 15 REST 12 23 REST REST 62
26 12 15 REST 12 100

[Dangerscouse]

Hi all,
I am brand new to the forum, but have come for a specific purpose. I'm a novice rower, and I intend to spend the next ~6 months training to complete a 100km attempt to raise money for glioblastoma research in memoriam of my friend who died at the age of 44, 17 months after diagnosis and 19 months after the birth of his second child.
I have been reading the forums and have learned a lot with regards to hydration and planning for the event day. What I'm looking for now is assistance in developing a training plan. My draft training plan is below (weeks in column 1 days in row 1). Ideally I would like to row 4 days a week, so that I can maintain my family life, as well as active recovery activities. Would anyone be willing to provide comment or suggestion on my plan, or offer an alternative?
Thank you kindly,
Mike

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Week Total
1 12 12 REST 12 18 REST REST 54
2 12 12 REST 12 23 REST REST 59
3 12 15 REST 12 15 REST REST 54
4 12 15 REST 12 35 REST REST 74
5 12 19 REST 12 38 REST REST 81
6 12 19 REST 12 27 REST REST 70
7 12 19 REST 12 46 REST REST 89
8 12 19 REST 12 50 REST REST 93
9 12 23 REST 12 23 REST REST 70
10 12 27 REST 15 58 REST REST 112
11 15 19 REST 15 20 REST REST 69
12 15 23 REST 15 20 REST REST 73
13 15 27 REST 15 15 REST REST 72
14 15 35 REST 15 18 REST REST 83
15 19 38 REST 19 20 REST REST 96
16 19 42 REST 19 25 REST REST 105
17 21 30 REST 23 30 REST REST 104
18 21 30 REST 23 40 REST REST 114
19 21 15 REST 19 50 REST REST 105
20 19 30 REST 19 60 REST REST 128
21 15 20 REST 15 77 REST REST 127
22 15 18 REST 19 50 REST REST 102
23 15 18 REST 15 46 REST REST 94
24 19 23 REST 12 35 REST REST 89
25 12 15 REST 12 23 REST REST 62
26 12 15 REST 12 100

Hi Mike, welcome to the forum. Six months is definitely achievable for a 100k, but it will be tough.

What is the furthest you've done before? Do you use a HR monitor? The plan looks OK, but there are some fairly big jumps in distance. This will be harder than you imagine, so just be prepared for that. Everything seems manageable until you try it.

Try to include a variety of pace / stroke rate as well: don't keep it all steady state. Some medium-hard paced distances will be helpful, otherwise you can gain resilience, but it has a soft under belly and will be exposed when you need to dig in; and you definitely will need to dig in.

Training your mind is equally, if not more, important as building your base fitness. There are many mind games at play when you get over 60k, especially if you're going at a hard pace. I'd highly recommend that you do a lot of research about that. Good luck.

[pagomichaelh]

Hi all,
I am brand new to the forum, but have come for a specific purpose. I'm a novice rower, and I intend to spend the next ~6 months training to complete a 100km attempt to raise money for glioblastoma research in memoriam of my friend who died at the age of 44, 17 months after diagnosis and 19 months after the birth of his second child.
...
Mike

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Week Total
1 12 12 REST 12 18 REST REST 54
...

I started on the Eddie Fletcher plan, and am now on the 8th week. I've seen a performance improvement of 3.8% from the beginning to now, so at least for right now, I'd recommend it.

He assumes that you're in good physical condition to start with, and the way his plan is structured, it helps with the most important part, the mental aspect. I did a double double+ century (436 miles) when I was in my 30s, and it was the mind, not the body, that had the hardest time of things, so don't overlook how important that is.

It's pretty pricey, but it seems well thought out.

best,

[MPx]

Would anyone be willing to provide comment or suggestion on my plan

Well you've heard from Stu our most accomplished long distance erger - here's another view from someone who prefers short intervals!
Its an amazing thing you're setting out to do and you have my very best wishes. My impression is you have no idea what you've let yourself in for and the magnitude of the task. You say a "novice". If that's true - as in you've not erg'd much at all - then I suspect that you are going to struggle with your start up sessions of 12k let alone the sequence from there on. I'm not talking about fitness - you may have a seriously trained background and even if not that is buildable in the time if you aren't to bothered about your pace. Its many many years since I started, but I still have vivid memories of struggling to sit on the erg long enough to do 5k right at the start as the pain in the bum (sit bones) was excruciating. Stu can saw away most of the day and get up and do similar tomorrow. I do just one Half Marathon (21097m) per year and I know I will be uncomfortable sitting down for the following 24 hours and I'll have some very sore blisters on my hands and my back will ache. I certainly couldn't do another one the next day. This is after erging for well over 20 years maxing out at about 50k/week. So some people can, some can't. I hope you're in the first group. Best of luck.

[Dangerscouse]

Would anyone be willing to provide comment or suggestion on my plan

Well you've heard from Stu our most accomplished long distance erger - here's another view from someone who prefers short intervals!
Its an amazing thing you're setting out to do and you have my very best wishes. My impression is you have no idea what you've let yourself in for and the magnitude of the task. You say a "novice". If that's true - as in you've not erg'd much at all - then I suspect that you are going to struggle with your start up sessions of 12k let alone the sequence from there on. I'm not talking about fitness - you may have a seriously trained background and even if not that is buildable in the time if you aren't to bothered about your pace. Its many many years since I started, but I still have vivid memories of struggling to sit on the erg long enough to do 5k right at the start as the pain in the bum (sit bones) was excruciating. Stu can saw away most of the day and get up and do similar tomorrow. I do just one Half Marathon (21097m) per year and I know I will be uncomfortable sitting down for the following 24 hours and I'll have some very sore blisters on my hands and my back will ache. I certainly couldn't do another one the next day. This is after erging for well over 20 years maxing out at about 50k/week. So some people can, some can't. I hope you're in the first group. Best of luck.

Very good comments Mike. Physiologically I'm well suited to the longer stuff, and I am guilty of forgetting that it's not the same for everyone else.