Endurance erging - A place to discuss 42, 50, 100k upwards.

[Dangerscouse]

I can't help but to wonder if, besides conditioning the heart, if I'm learning how to train (manual) my heart rate, like a yogic adept.

And, if so, what would this do to conditioning; positive, neutral, or negative?

I'm not sure I understand the question, but I have found a circa 5bpm difference when I row with eyes closed, zone out, and row with intuition rather than staring at the monitor. It is almost like a form of meditation.

[pagomichaelh]

I'm not sure I understand the question, but I have found a circa 5bpm difference when I row with eyes closed, zone out, and row with intuition rather than staring at the monitor. It is almost like a form of meditation.

Exactly what I've observed - when I go off into my mental la-la land, the HR lowers.

The question is if there is a physiological change occuring during that time? (I haven't a clue or an opinion, only questions! )

[Dangerscouse]

Exactly what I've observed - when I go off into my mental la-la land, the HR lowers.

The question is if there is a physiological change occuring during that time? (I haven't a clue or an opinion, only questions! )

I'm not sure, but I guess that the only physiological benefits are that a lower HR is more beneficial to mitochondria production, and it gives you a more sustainable way of rowing the longer distances.

I have definitely found performance benefits recently, but if that is just doing more and more distance, the artificially lowered HR, or a mixture of both, I don't have clue.

[GlennUk]

Re: 'meditative state' and HR, i read an article recently which suggested that counting down how far to go affects your performance compared with not knowing which seemed counter intuitive.

I find that if i dont concentrate on pace/HR my spm flcutuates and icnreases sigfnciantyl, maybe i just need more practice

In principle, as i understand it, the lower your HR (for a given pace/spm) during the exercise compared with the HRmax, the longer you should be able to row at that pace.

On this basis, it would seem helpful if HR could be lowered for the same exercise purely by maintaining a particular 'mental state', not sure it would work for me atm but of course others may have a different experience.

[max_ratcliffe]

This seems a bit wrong to me.

Your HR for a given level of effort comes down over the long term through training effects, such as greater stroke volume, improved mitochondria, etc.

If you're artificially reducing your HR in the short term through a breathing technique or similar, then that will limit your performance, not enhance it. In the limit, you can reduce your HR by holding your breath, but clearly that doesn't last long and is obviously unsustainable for any sort of aerobic performance.

I've read somewhere (possibly this forum?) that when you're very fatigued, your RHR is higher than usual, but MHR is lower, resulting in reduced performance.

Having said all that, there must be something to be said for not stressing out and keeping things on an even keel.

[Dangerscouse]

This seems a bit wrong to me.

Your HR for a given level of effort comes down over the long term through training effects, such as greater stroke volume, improved mitochondria, etc.

If you're artificially reducing your HR in the short term through a breathing technique or similar, then that will limit your performance, not enhance it. In the limit, you can reduce your HR by holding your breath, but clearly that doesn't last long and is obviously unsustainable for any sort of aerobic performance.

I've read somewhere (possibly this forum?) that when you're very fatigued, your RHR is higher than usual, but MHR is lower, resulting in reduced performance.

Having said all that, there must be something to be said for not stressing out and keeping things on an even keel.

Ime, it has been beneficial and very productive. I assume that it's due to there being a new base level of HR, and that will decrease accordingly too, so there is alwaysna good benchmark with which to use. I also seem to remember reading about lower acidity of blood with lower HR so that also really benefits mitochondria development. I obviously can't claim to be an expert on this, but my performance improvements have all been since using this type of training.

Having said that, I have also made sure to fairly regularly do some grey zone training, in addition to higher intensity sessions, and when I went for a few weeks with almost exclusively low UT2 sessions I did find that it was starting to become counter productive. I think that the ability to quickly identify detrimental training effects has also been a consequence of zoned out rowing. Hitherto it always had to be far more obvious for me to take notice.

Regarding holding your breath, I have tried that when rowing and it sends your HR rocketing as breathing is essentially more about CO2 clearance than needing more O2, so the brain panics as it senses the CO2 isn't being cleared. If you've ever tried using a altitude training mask it will make you feel like you're suffocating.

[Dangerscouse]

Re: 'meditative state' and HR, i read an article recently which suggested that counting down how far to go affects your performance compared with not knowing which seemed counter intuitive.

That's counter intuitive to me too, and contrary to what I have been doing recently. As an example for a HM, I'll close my eyes and row, using my music as a useful marker for time (dance mixes, and the tracks are usually five minutes long) so I use a guide of 1km per track, which is always underestimating the distance.

Using this method I can trick myself into thinking I've got 10k left to go, but in reality it could be closer to 7.5k when I glance at the monitor, and this is always a positive feeling.

Can you point me in the right direction of the article please Glenn?

[GlennUk]

No problem



Found it https://www.sportsperformancebulletin.c ... -watching/

[Mortie31]

An interesting read on breathing from the Eddie Fletcher website
https://fletchercsimon.files.wordpress. ... t-well.pdf
https://fletchersportscience.com/powerbreathe/
The book Endure by Ales Hutchinson has some good insights on the evolution of various endurance performances and theories over time and includes a section on the Governor theory amongst others and loads on human max endurance performance, well worth a read. It appears it’s the mind we need to train as much as the body!

[Dangerscouse]

No problem



Found it https://www.sportsperformancebulletin.c ... -watching/

Thanks Glenn

[GlennUk]

Im getting near to my first 'long distance' row, 60K assuming no issues, on the 23rd May.

Its been interesting following the EF training plan, there's a section in the book about nutrition and whilst id read it, was assuming that my diet would be sufficient, especially as i wasn't planning on a world record attempt.

Wrong!!!

I found after looking at my protein intake that i was seriously deficient, not just for exercise but probably generally too. Started taking protein shakes, once a day won rest days for maintenance and twice a day when exercising.

Also found i was getting tired generally and although i could complete the training sessions, wasn't 'feeling the love' and finding it harder than i thought it should be. Review of carb intake suggested i was deficient there too, so now have been eating breakfast, upped intake of complex cars (brown rice, brown bread, pasta) generally and have found improvements in performance.

Overall, found that i am closer to the benchmarks set in the EF plan and more consistent overall.

Makes me wonder, if i had considered nutrition when i first started erging whether on balance my PBs would have been a little lower. No point in crying over spilt milk, but i have found the process of preparing for a my 60k warmup with the 115k to follow interesting.

[mitchel674]

During my brief time on EF marathon training and the subsequent 12 weeks I spent preparing for a marathon, I realized that nutrition was paramount. I kept losing weight due to all of the long distance rows. I don't have much weight to lose. It's critical to closely monitor your protein and calorie intake during these training months with long rows. I still have not put weight back on since that effort one year ago.

[Dangerscouse]

I am eating so much, it's the only thing that my wife & I regularly argue over (in reality it's bickering, and limited, as I'm too busy eating). You literally turn into a furnace when you regularly do long distances.

Protein shakes are essential along with carb drinks for the long rows.

[GlennUk]

During my brief time on EF marathon training and the subsequent 12 weeks I spent preparing for a marathon, I realized that nutrition was paramount. I kept losing weight due to all of the long distance rows. I don't have much weight to lose. It's critical to closely monitor your protein and calorie intake during these training months with long rows. I still have not put weight back on since that effort one year ago.

My problem is that i am slightly overweight wrt to my 'ideal weight' and am carrying a bit of fat. Base don general weight charts im about 3.5kgs overweight.

I haven't found that my weight drops significantly due to exercise, probably because i eat (the wrong stuff) in compensation for the calories burned.

I have reduced consumption of simple carb containing products, and am now concentrating on complex carbs based foods and 3 meals a day instead of two including a lot of whole foods products.

I haven't changed shape radically, although i do think that i have lost some fat, but at the same time my performance has not dropped off. Be interesting to see how the rest of the year goes in this context.

[GlennUk]

I am eating so much, it's the only thing that my wife & I regularly argue over (in reality it's bickering, and limited, as I'm too busy eating). You literally turn into a furnace when you regularly do long distances.

Protein shakes are essential along with carb drinks for the long rows.

I haven't tried carb drinks, been trying to balance dietary needs using foods apart from the protein shakes. After the 60k i am moving onto training for just under 116k, base do nhtis experience there is no doubt i will have to take nutrition much more seriously if i am to complete the row (note i didnt say in any particular form or time, just complete it).