Long distance OTW row planned

General discussion on Training. How to get better on your erg, how to use your erg to get better at another sport, or anything else about improving your abilities.
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pagomichaelh
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Long distance OTW row planned

Post by pagomichaelh » March 9th, 2021, 2:14 pm

Hi all,

I've convinced another crazy person to row between the two Samoa's next summer (flat water), about a 70km trip. We both work, so most of our training will be done on the erg, with both of us actually on the water a couple of times per week.

Any suggestions on a training programme on the erg? Pete Plan and Wolverine are both structured around a short race.

I'm middle sixties, she's early 50's. Objective is to survive, not to set speed records! :)

Edit: Summer for us is December

best,
Michael
5'7" 152# b. 1954

Rod
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Re: Long distance OTW row planned

Post by Rod » March 9th, 2021, 3:32 pm

pagomichaelh wrote:
March 9th, 2021, 2:14 pm
Any suggestions on a training programme on the erg?
I can highly recommend the Indoor Rowing Long-Distance Guide by Eddie Fletcher, he is a top guy for endurance coaching and got me to a 100k world record in the 60-69 Lightweight (under 75kg/165lbs) category;

https://fletchersportscience.com/indoor ... ing-plans/

Good luck with your row. :wink:
63 year old, 72 kilo (159lbs), 5'8''/174cm (always the shortest on the podium!) male. Based in Sussex, just south of London, England. Best recent rows 60 mins.....16011 metres. 30 mins.....8215 metres. 100k 7hrs 14 mins.(World 60-69 Lwt. Record)

Ante
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Re: Long distance OTW row planned

Post by Ante » March 9th, 2021, 4:41 pm

Hi Michael,

Great ánd ambitious plan! 👍
70 km might seem doable, but it is definitively very hard, even after decent preparation.
I once took part in a 40 km marathon without any special training, because someone fell ill. At the time I used to row 15-20 km otw twice weekly. I thought I would manage and I did, but only just... Dead nerves in butt, badly blistered hands. Had a nagging schouder injury a week later, that took ages to disappear. That was with four rowers + cox in the boat and only 40k.

If the two of you slowly but surely extend your distances on the erg and, more importantly, on the water, you can build up to several whole days of rowing together to find out if you’ll make it. E.g. a couple of times do 40 km otw and for training 50k on the erg. The remaining part usually has to get done on willpower!
In Holland there is this yearly race of 100km, through the middle bit of our country, basically Leiden-Amsterdam-Leiden-The Hague-Delft. It’s called the Ringvaart (meaning canal) Regatta.
Depending on boat type and amount of rowers this race takes between 6 (winners in an 8x+) and 12 hours (a lot of others).
(More than 12 hrs means disqualification because of exhaustion and, usually, the sunset.)

If on open water, you really want to make sure you arrive home. Being saved on a Dutch canal is easy, between islands not so much, but you ofcourse know this. 😄
Don’t forget to count ample time for changing places in the boat, navigation, ‘bathroom visits’ and eating.
(And perhaps arrange for a ‘welcome committee’ with a motor launch that can come and find you, if need be?)

Good luck and fun with the preparations and keep posting! 🚣‍♂️

Ante
Dutch F 60, 1.67 m, HWT, addicted 🌀🚣‍♂️😅

Ante
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Re: Long distance OTW row planned

Post by Ante » March 9th, 2021, 4:45 pm

Dutch F 60, 1.67 m, HWT, addicted 🌀🚣‍♂️😅

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pagomichaelh
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Re: Long distance OTW row planned

Post by pagomichaelh » March 9th, 2021, 5:23 pm

Thanks for the replies, please keep them coming everyone!

Rod, I've emailed Fletcher, GBP 135 isn't chicken feed to us, I've emailed him asking for a table of contents and maybe a couple of sample pages.

Ante, here's a Google maps link to our island. For training, her family's house is right on the water, on that little spit of land just north of the reef runway in Tafuna, so we're talking about training runs around Aunu'u island and back, just up the coast, which would be about 30km round trip.

For the actual trip, we'd leave from Amanave on the west side of Tutuila Island, and finish at the resort in Vailoa, Upolu Island. One of my boss's businesses is a charter operation, so we'd have one of his boats as an escort (safety, food/water pass ups), etc.

In 1981,I rode 436 miles in 24 hours on a push bike, the memory of the pain is just starting to dim, so why not give it another go? :)
5'7" 152# b. 1954

Dangerscouse
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Re: Long distance OTW row planned

Post by Dangerscouse » March 10th, 2021, 1:49 am

I have done a lot of long distances but I've never used a structured programme.

All I have done is build up the distance over each week, using a variety of stroke rates and paces, and intensities. Nothing more technical than that, imo it's more about adapting to the effort, the distance and the feeling.

Best of luck with it all.
47 HWT; 6' 4"; 1k= 3:09; 2k= 6:36; 5k= 17:19; 6k= 20:47; 10k= 35:46 30mins= 8,488m 60mins= 16,618m HM= 1:16.47; FM= 2:40:41; 50k= 3:16:09; 100k= 7:52:44; 12hrs = 153km

"You reap what you row"

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pagomichaelh
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Re: Long distance OTW row planned

Post by pagomichaelh » March 21st, 2021, 6:13 pm

Rod wrote:
March 9th, 2021, 3:32 pm
pagomichaelh wrote:
March 9th, 2021, 2:14 pm
Any suggestions on a training programme on the erg?
I can highly recommend the Indoor Rowing Long-Distance Guide by Eddie Fletcher, he is a top guy for endurance coaching and got me to a 100k world record in the 60-69 Lightweight (under 75kg/165lbs) category;

https://fletchersportscience.com/indoor ... ing-plans/

Good luck with your row. :wink:
Hi Rod,
I've started on his plan.

I've never trained with heart rate as a parameter. When you start to exceed the target rate, do you decrease the stroke rate, or decrease the force of the drive?

TIA and best,
Michael
5'7" 152# b. 1954

mict450
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Re: Long distance OTW row planned

Post by mict450 » March 23rd, 2021, 1:01 pm

pagomichaelh wrote:
March 21st, 2021, 6:13 pm

I've never trained with heart rate as a parameter. When you start to exceed the target rate, do you decrease the stroke rate, or decrease the force of the drive?
Hmmm, kinda hard to answer this one as there are a lot of variables to consider.

You have 3 metrics to measure intensity: pace, RPE & HR. If pace & RPE are okay but HR is a little elevated, I would disregard HR & keep to pace and RPE. If HR & another metric is off, then definitely back off. I usually do SS at 16-18 rating, so chose to decrease force. Others would probably disagree, choosing to decrease rating.

On a long session your HR will increase gradually, cardiac drift, if I remember correctly. For myself, I would tend to just keep everything the same. Others will disagree, saying that you started out too fast, & should never exceed your targeted zone.

There are more criteria that people follow, but I think you kind of have an idea about the "rabbit hole" HR training is. Does Mr. Fletcher offer any guidance on the subject?

Best wishes on your open ocean row, Michael.
Eric, YOB:1954
Shasta County, CA, small town USA

Rod
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Re: Long distance OTW row planned

Post by Rod » March 23rd, 2021, 2:43 pm

pagomichaelh wrote:
March 21st, 2021, 6:13 pm
Hi Rod,
I've started on his plan.

I've never trained with heart rate as a parameter. When you start to exceed the target rate, do you decrease the stroke rate, or decrease the force of the drive?
TIA and best,
Michael
Great to hear you've started on the plan Michael, well done a nd good luck with it, do please keep us posted on progress.

The sessions all have set stroke rates so don't decrease the spm if you are going too high on the heart rate just reduce the power you're putting into the stroke...just slow down.

Feel free to email Eddie with any questions you may have, he'll always be happy to advise.
63 year old, 72 kilo (159lbs), 5'8''/174cm (always the shortest on the podium!) male. Based in Sussex, just south of London, England. Best recent rows 60 mins.....16011 metres. 30 mins.....8215 metres. 100k 7hrs 14 mins.(World 60-69 Lwt. Record)

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pagomichaelh
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Re: Long distance OTW row planned

Post by pagomichaelh » March 24th, 2021, 1:02 am

mict450 wrote:
March 23rd, 2021, 1:01 pm
Hmmm, kinda hard to answer this one as there are a lot of variables to consider.

You have 3 metrics to measure intensity: pace, RPE & HR. If pace & RPE are okay but HR is a little elevated, I would disregard HR & keep to pace and RPE. If HR & another metric is off, then definitely back off. I usually do SS at 16-18 rating, so chose to decrease force. Others would probably disagree, choosing to decrease rating.

On a long session your HR will increase gradually, cardiac drift, if I remember correctly. For myself, I would tend to just keep everything the same. Others will disagree, saying that you started out too fast, & should never exceed your targeted zone.

There are more criteria that people follow, but I think you kind of have an idea about the "rabbit hole" HR training is. Does Mr. Fletcher offer any guidance on the subject?

Best wishes on your open ocean row, Michael.
Rod wrote:
March 23rd, 2021, 2:43 pm
Great to hear you've started on the plan Michael, well done a nd good luck with it, do please keep us posted on progress.

The sessions all have set stroke rates so don't decrease the spm if you are going too high on the heart rate just reduce the power you're putting into the stroke...just slow down.

Feel free to email Eddie with any questions you may have, he'll always be happy to advise.
Thanks guys, power reduction it is.

I'm supposed to have a swim test this week in order to be able to sign out a boat. We've been having World Rowing Coastal Racing Coaching workshops via Zoom on Saturdays, and boats are supposed to be going in the water the upcoming week end.

My partner in crime has gotten a C2 which had been sitting outside and she is restoring it so she can start her training during the week on it (neither of our respective spouses have any interest).

You may, or may not, know, but we have quite a history here of rowing, just much different boats

You'll see the local version of a C2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23bOHL6mSQc I don't think the brothers who founded Concept 2 are worried! :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wd4cm-HRtVc

Fautasi (literal - make one) were from two whale boats joined end to end, were 'warships' that came out of the Mau rebellion, where they were used to harass the New Zealanders before their vessels could get up steam, and have since become a competitive sport between villages.
5'7" 152# b. 1954

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Re: Long distance OTW row planned

Post by mict450 » March 24th, 2021, 2:30 am

pagomichaelh wrote:
March 24th, 2021, 1:02 am

Fautasi (literal - make one) were from two whale boats joined end to end, were 'warships' that came out of the Mau rebellion, where they were used to harass the New Zealanders before their vessels could get up steam, and have since become a competitive sport between villages.
Wow!! Impressive!! How many in a boat? Fixed seat rowing....my back starts yakking at me just thinking about it!
Eric, YOB:1954
Shasta County, CA, small town USA

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Re: Long distance OTW row planned

Post by Tsnor » March 24th, 2021, 10:10 pm

How many hours is your row ? Maybe 10 hours ?

Here is a video on ultra-endurance nutrition, maybe it will help. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2InF6nuTXzk Good luck and have fun.

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pagomichaelh
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Re: Long distance OTW row planned

Post by pagomichaelh » March 25th, 2021, 12:49 am

mict450 wrote:
March 24th, 2021, 2:30 am


Wow!! Impressive!! How many in a boat? Fixed seat rowing....my back starts yakking at me just thinking about it!
Less than 50 is the rule. There's a diminishing return on larger numbers, so it depends on the boat design. Remember, these guys are all in the 250-300# range.
Tsnor wrote:
March 24th, 2021, 10:10 pm
How many hours is your row ? Maybe 10 hours ?

Here is a video on ultra-endurance nutrition, maybe it will help. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2InF6nuTXzk Good luck and have fun.
I'm hoping for around 7 hours. Thanks for the vid, he agrees with me on nutrition, so he has to be right! :) :) :)
5'7" 152# b. 1954

GlennUk
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Re: Long distance OTW row planned

Post by GlennUk » March 25th, 2021, 9:20 am

Rod wrote:
March 23rd, 2021, 2:43 pm
pagomichaelh wrote:
March 21st, 2021, 6:13 pm
Hi Rod,
I've started on his plan.

I've never trained with heart rate as a parameter. When you start to exceed the target rate, do you decrease the stroke rate, or decrease the force of the drive?
TIA and best,
Michael
Great to hear you've started on the plan Michael, well done a nd good luck with it, do please keep us posted on progress.

The sessions all have set stroke rates so don't decrease the spm if you are going too high on the heart rate just reduce the power you're putting into the stroke...just slow down.

Feel free to email Eddie with any questions you may have, he'll always be happy to advise.
To follow on with what Rod said, the plan is predicated on knowing HRmax value based on measured values.

I had been working off such values measure dover a number of weeks/months based on Suunto chest strap and more recently apolar. I found a one of test as per the EF guide retunred a value significantly lower than measured values over previous weeks/

Consequently i experimented with HR values closer to previous measurements combined with RPE to arrive at values which are showing benefits (e.g. reduced resting HR values, improving perofrmanc einconstency/HR/pace) and give me targets to aim for when training.
I reached 60 Jan 1,21, I decided to do 60k to raise money for https://www.havenshospices.org.uk/, then thought i would go further, 115,972m.

Any donations gratefully received https://www.justgiving.com/fundraising/ ... ctpossible

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OregonERG
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Re: Long distance OTW row planned

Post by OregonERG » May 1st, 2021, 1:30 pm

I have no rowing insights or technical contribution whatsoever, but I am impressed and curious about this kind of row, so I'll as a question instead.

What kind of boat will you guys be using?

I am reading Across The Savage Sea by Maud Fauntenoy right now (a great, short book about rowing the N. Atlantic) and it is not just her tale but also the boat itself that completely fascinates me.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3177264.stm
48 years, 6'0 & 170 lbs. | 2km - 6:59.2 / 5km - 18:13.7 / 30 min - 8085m / 10km - 37:12.5 / Hour Best - 15,823m

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