Relatively Weak 2km Time

[OregonERG]

Can you guys give me your two cents on this... my 2km time (from 2019) was 6:59. I didn't really row much during the last year (gym was closed), but I did get my 5km and 10km bests times just before the lock-down. Now I recently bought my own Concept2 and have just rowed my Hour best.

Here is my question, why are my 5km, 10km and Hour times "better" than my 2km time?

Is it me lacking anaerobic power in the 2km or is it other rowers not caring so much about things like the 10km and the Hour? Or a little of both?

Here are my 2019-2021 bests and their relative rankings in the 40-49 AG:
2km - 6:59 - 88th percentile
5km - 18:13 - 94th %
10km - 37:12 - 94th %
Hour - 15,740m - 92nd %

p.s. Repeating the sub-7 seems impossible right now.

[hjs]

Can you guys give me your two cents on this... my 2km time (from 2019) was 6:59. I didn't really row much during the last year (gym was closed), but I did get my 5km and 10km bests times just before the lock-down. Now I recently bought my own Concept2 and have just rowed my Hour best.

Here is my question, why are my 5km, 10km and Hour times "better" than my 2km time?

Is it me lacking anaerobic power in the 2km or is it other rowers not caring so much about things like the 10km and the Hour? Or a little of both?

Here are my 2019-2021 bests and their relative rankings in the 40-49 AG:
2km - 6:59 - 88th percentile
5km - 18:13 - 94th %
10km - 37:12 - 94th %
Hour - 15,740m - 92nd %

p.s. Repeating the sub-7 seems impossible right now.

Main reason will be muscle fiber type. You look like a slow muscle fiber kind of man. Think you have little explosive power. Things like sprinting jumping are not your thing?

Training, what Spm do you row at? Only high? You could have a weak stroke, making it difficult to get speed.

[jamesg]

This is typical of LWs who have limited mass but often very good CV capability: your long times are fine. To go at any given speed on the erg takes the same power to the handle, whether we weigh 50 or a 100kg.

To go faster in shorter pieces far more power is needed (cube law with respect to speed) but there's a limit to rating beyond which inertial power losses and technical difficulties both increase. To analyse what you are doing you need to watch W/kg and Watts/Rating. A 2k race, if we want to limit inertial power loss, has to be done at at about 30 most of the way, so that we can sprint to 35-40 if and when needed; since 7 minutes means 300W, the stroke needs to be worth about 10 during training to offer some margin.

[Gammmmo]

Your 10K time stands out IMO. I've never been that fast and yet have done 6:4x multiple times at more like 160lbs. Have you thought of doing a 500m and 1K effort to get a more complete view of your power profile? For someone who isn't a total diesel or sprinter I'd say your 2K and 5K are not THAT far off but your 10K might suggest your 2K should be quicker...when did you test thses relative efforts? Similar fitness levels at the time? FWIW I do think there is some stock in your suspicion your 2K is weak because of it's % ranking...I just think far more people will log 2K times. I would look at alternative ways of measuring the relative differences and where they are in comparion with other people...so you could look at people's signatures, or look for some of the "forumulas" here to look at typical 500m pace differences between distances.

[Dangerscouse]

In addition to what has been mentioned above, sometimes there's a mental obstacle that needs to tackled to allow you to suffer over a shorter distance.

The discomfort is different for 5k - 10k, when compared to 2k, and sometimes it needs more attention, training and 'stress inoculation', so you don't ease off when you have to dig deeper. I definitely feel more comfortable with a 10k than a 2k.

[OregonERG]

Training, what Spm do you row at? Only high? You could have a weak stroke, making it difficult to get speed.

I am pretty (muscularly) weak from running marathons my whole life and thus rely on my cardio fitness to hit my times... When I set my Hour Best, I rowed at 31 spm for the whole hour and it was "doable" for me. The problem, obviously, is that I am not able to generate much power. When I go "all out" I am only able to drop from 1:5x pace down to like 1:45. So "pulling as hard as I can" doesn't help me at all (because I am so weak).

p.s. My heart rate is also steady the whole time too... creeping up from 156 in the beginning to 168 by the end but never jumping up or dropping off, so I feel like I am sustaining the hour effort in ways that won't help me in the 2km.

[hjs]

Training, what Spm do you row at? Only high? You could have a weak stroke, making it difficult to get speed.

I am pretty (muscularly) weak from running marathons my whole life and thus rely on my cardio fitness to hit my times... When I set my Hour Best, I rowed at 31 spm for the whole hour and it was "doable" for me. The problem, obviously, is that I am not able to generate much power. When I go "all out" I am only able to drop from 1:5x pace down to like 1:45. So "pulling as hard as I can" doesn't help me at all (because I am so weak).

p.s. My heart rate is also steady the whole time too... creeping up from 156 in the beginning to 168 by the end but never jumping up or dropping off, so I feel like I am sustaining the hour effort in ways that won't help me in the 2km.

Think you should give this a positive twist, you got very decent aerobic fitness and are well trained in that area. This is a good base, to transfer this you would also put effort in your stroke. Think up a 6 weeks program, nothing fancy, but simply give it a go. I think you should really see good improvement in those 6 weeks.
You could start out with a test. Simply do a 2k at rate 24, repeat this after 6 weeks training.

And it not that you should completely change up your current way of doing stuff, simply do 2/3 x a week a bit different.

[OregonERG]

You could start out with a test. Simply do a 2k at rate 24, repeat this after 6 weeks training.

The problem with this (for me) is that I am "just sitting there" for 1/5 of the time. As it is, I do a stroke every two seconds. You guys want me to do a stroke every 2.5 seconds. What do you do with that extra .5 seconds every stroke? Do your arms "recover" and thus give you more power? I feel like I am just wasting time, sitting around.

It isn't like I can pull harder if I slow down. I know the sports don't compare, but when I "run slower" I don't push against the ground harder or bound further down the road. Seriously though, I think my times will just be 1/5 slower if I slow my spm.

[mitchel674]

You could start out with a test. Simply do a 2k at rate 24, repeat this after 6 weeks training.

The problem with this (for me) is that I am "just sitting there" for 1/5 of the time. As it is, I do a stroke every two seconds. You guys want me to do a stroke every 2.5 seconds. What do you do with that extra .5 seconds every stroke? Do your arms "recover" and thus give you more power? I feel like I am just wasting time, sitting around.

It isn't like I can pull harder if I slow down. I know the sports don't compare, but when I "run slower" I don't push against the ground harder or bound further down the road. Seriously though, I think my times will just be 1/5 slower if I slow my spm.

You've already identified that your stroke is weak. You currently compensate for this by increasing your stroke rate. What Henry is suggesting is that you work to increase the power behind each stroke. The best way to do this is to slow down your stroke rate and focus on a more powerful stroke with each drive. What do you do with those 2 seconds? You recover!

A popular workout is 30, r20. Yes, 30 minutes at 20 strokes/minute. This may seem crazy to you, but it forces you to make each one of those 600 strokes count.

[jamesg]

I rowed at 31 spm for the whole hour

15k in an hour at 31 is a stroke worth about 7 Watt-minutes (Watts/Rating). With that stroke in a 2k at 35 you would reach 250W, pace 1:52. This suggests you need a better stroke: for example by training at 200W rate 20, so ratio 10.

This will require a substantial change in technique, to standard rowing style and sequences. Your results suggest you're not weak at all, but could apply your strength much better, in particular the legs. Power is made up of Length, Force an Rating; and when doing a 2k they all need to be in place; but length and correct force application come only from technique.

The C2 technical videos show how it's done. https://www.concept2.com/indoor-rowers/ ... que-videos

[hjs]

You could start out with a test. Simply do a 2k at rate 24, repeat this after 6 weeks training.

The problem with this (for me) is that I am "just sitting there" for 1/5 of the time. As it is, I do a stroke every two seconds. You guys want me to do a stroke every 2.5 seconds. What do you do with that extra .5 seconds every stroke? Do your arms "recover" and thus give you more power? I feel like I am just wasting time, sitting around.

It isn't like I can pull harder if I slow down. I know the sports don't compare, but when I "run slower" I don't push against the ground harder or bound further down the road. Seriously though, I think my times will just be 1/5 slower if I slow my spm.

Why do you think you are a special snowflake? You don’t sit, you move slower, and during the drive you pull harder.

And you don’t do a stroke every 2 seconds, you stroke 1 second and recover 1 second. At rate 30.
At rate 20 you should stroke still 1 second but recover 2.
Result will be that between strokes you double the amount of rest, this gives you muscle time to pick up extra O2

[OregonERG]

Why do you think you are a special snowflake? You don’t sit, you move slower, and during the drive you pull harder.

I don't think I am special, I just think I am unusually weak (upper body) for a person who is trying to row sub-7. I look at people who can row 37:12 for 10km and they all have better 2km times than me.

I would even bet that we can't find a 37:12 10km rower here who only rows 7:04 (which is what I did during the same training block last year). That tells me something is clearly wrong with my 2km since I am "doing okay" in the longer events.

I am unsure that "just pull harder and then rest up on the recovery side of the stroke" will work for me, but I am willing to try it. I admit that I don't know what I am doing since I have only rowed about 20-30 times in the last year and even before that, I was sporadic at best. That is why I am listening to people with more experience than me...

[jamesg]

just pull harder and then rest up on the recovery side of the stroke

You need to pull longer strokes with muscle groups in sequence and plenty of time for recovery, as will be needed. The ratio Watts/Rating shows what you are doing, and 200W at 20 is doable, offering you the same stroke you'll need for racing.

This means work on technique to get to a strong posture for quick catch with the legs. It's mostly a problem of action sequences as shown here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQ82RYIFLN8

You may need to keep feet and drag both as low as possible, to start with: feet for a strong catch posture, drag for speed of action.

[hjs]

Why do you think you are a special snowflake? You don’t sit, you move slower, and during the drive you pull harder.

I don't think I am special, I just think I am unusually weak (upper body) for a person who is trying to row sub-7. I look at people who can row 37:12 for 10km and they all have better 2km times than me.

I would even bet that we can't find a 37:12 10km rower here who only rows 7:04 (which is what I did during the same training block last year). That tells me something is clearly wrong with my 2km since I am "doing okay" in the longer events.

I am unsure that "just pull harder and then rest up on the recovery side of the stroke" will work for me, but I am willing to try it. I admit that I don't know what I am doing since I have only rowed about 20-30 times in the last year and even before that, I was sporadic at best. That is why I am listening to people with more experience than me...

I mean why do you think your strenght should not be trainable?

Lets put it an other way. Say we we have the opposite of you. A strong sprinter with a weak 2k, relative speaking. Who does not do any aerobic work, like you do no strenghtwork. If he would say, nay longer work won’t help, I simply am aerobicly very weak my fitness will not improve.

The fact you only rowed so little makes it even worse, or I would say better. Plenty of room to improve. Think all your distances can get a lot getter if you start building your stroke. Yes it takes time and you will always relative be fitter than stronger, but no matter what, you can build your stroke, 100% certain.

[Dangerscouse]

Why do you think you are a special snowflake? You don’t sit, you move slower, and during the drive you pull harder.

I don't think I am special, I just think I am unusually weak (upper body) for a person who is trying to row sub-7. I look at people who can row 37:12 for 10km and they all have better 2km times than me.

I would even bet that we can't find a 37:12 10km rower here who only rows 7:04 (which is what I did during the same training block last year). That tells me something is clearly wrong with my 2km since I am "doing okay" in the longer events.

I am unsure that "just pull harder and then rest up on the recovery side of the stroke" will work for me, but I am willing to try it. I admit that I don't know what I am doing since I have only rowed about 20-30 times in the last year and even before that, I was sporadic at best. That is why I am listening to people with more experience than me...

I totally agree with Henry, that you will get better as you specifically train for something. The effort, the movement, the breathing sequence etc will all improve with practice, and as an example I always used to row at r28-30 for every distance (I still feel most natural at this rate range), and my first ever attempt at 30r20 I managed circa 7760m. With lots of lower rate training, I can now do circa 8210m.

Pull harder and rest will work for you, it just sounds daunting as you perceive yourself as weak and not capable of more. As you will have done with your running break it down into smaller pieces and attack it slowly. The big difference between running and rowing is that running slower is easier (assuming it's a flat surface of course), but rowing slower can be both harder and easier, and this is going to take some mental adjustments from you.

What I would thoroughly recommend is regularly doing some Pilates exercises, as your lower back, and core, may be your weakest point. Low rate rowing is hard on the lower back, especially if you're using your arms too much. Imagine jumping horizontally away from the rower as a way to envisage the correct movement.