10% Higher Rowing Power

[Nomath]

...
I read the paper - the one that concluded ‘10% Higher Rowing Power Outputs After Flexion-Extension-Cycle Compared to an Isolated Concentric Contraction’. Unless I’m completely misunderstanding the title ...

...So having read the paper and considered what I’ve read before and your explanation as to why you think that a pause at the catch gives a more explosive drive I decided to discount your theory.

This is also my understanding of the paper. But I enjoy a reasoned contrarian view.

[frankencrank]

...
So having read the paper and considered what I’ve read before and your explanation as to why you think that a pause at the catch gives a more explosive drive I decided to discount your theory.

...
Second, How do you explain the results of the paper which are, seemingly, contrary to your experience?

First: if you haven’t provided your overall theory then obviously I cannot discount it. I was discounted what you suggested/concluded in your post.
Second: I must have completely misunderstood the results of the paper.

I repeat, how do you explain the results of the paper as you understand it. (how do you explain the three different results?)

[Tony Cook]

...
Second, How do you explain the results of the paper which are, seemingly, contrary to your experience?

First: if you haven’t provided your overall theory then obviously I cannot discount it. I was discounted what you suggested/concluded in your post.
Second: I must have completely misunderstood the results of the paper.

I repeat, how do you explain the results of the paper as you understand it. (how do you explain the three different results?)

I understand that flex then contract produces more power than static (pause) then contract. I am not knowledgable enough to explain why that is the case. But, for my purposes, I don’t need to. I just need to know that if I don’t pause at the catch I will go faster than if I do.

[frankencrank]

First: if you haven’t provided your overall theory then obviously I cannot discount it. I was discounted what you suggested/concluded in your post.
Second: I must have completely misunderstood the results of the paper.

I repeat, how do you explain the results of the paper as you understand it. (how do you explain the three different results?)

I understand that flex then contract produces more power than static (pause) then contract. I am not knowledgable enough to explain why that is the case. But, for my purposes, I don’t need to. I just need to know that if I don’t pause at the catch I will go faster than if I do.

So, you know what you know but don't care to try to understand and explain a study result that seems to contradict what you know. Is that correct?

The study suggests that doing something different than what people do now might result in a power increase. Is there anything that can be learned from this study that can be applied to what people actually do? I say there is and it doesn't necessarily involve pausing at the catch.

[Tony Cook]

I repeat, how do you explain the results of the paper as you understand it. (how do you explain the three different results?)

I understand that flex then contract produces more power than static (pause) then contract. I am not knowledgable enough to explain why that is the case. But, for my purposes, I don’t need to. I just need to know that if I don’t pause at the catch I will go faster than if I do.

So, you know what you know but don't care to try to understand and explain a study result that seems to contradict what you know. Is that correct?

The study suggests that doing something different than what people do now might result in a power increase. Is there anything that can be learned from this study that can be applied to what people actually do? I say there is and it doesn't necessarily involve pausing at the catch.

No, that’s not correct. I know what I know and the study confirms what I know.

[hjs]

Read the abstract and it only looks at power per stroke, not at timed results over a certain distance. Rowing is ofcourse not about single strokes, but a (long) series of ones.

Looking at the graph, the stroke would be different at the catch. There we see a steeper curve. The way I understand this is the following, instead of starting the stroke from a as much as possible relax state, you first contract the muscles concentric. This would mean flexing both the quadriceps and hamstrings. Only flexing the quadriceps is of course not possible, this would start the drive.

The result will be that the muscle already has tension at the start of the catch, so per stroke, there is sooner and thus overall more energy to give. So yes a single stroke like this has more power.

But now, why this won’t work, the body has a limited amount of energy to use. This energy needs to be used as efficient as possible, muscles should only contract if this aids the wanted movement. Any other contraction is waisted energy.

So my conclusion is, yes, pre contracting the muscle will give a stronger single stroke. At the same time, this pre contracting will cost energy and in the end make the rower slower. The rason being, there is less energy left for the actual rowing, the static pre contraction will use up energy that can’t be used for rowing itself.

Example, try this out. Use a squat or benchpress or whatever. Use a weight where you know you can do a certain amount of reps. Say 20, just an example. 2k would be 200 strokes maybe.

Now on different days, do the movement as efficient as possible, this would give you your “normal” max reps.
On an other day, do the movement, with pre contraction, this will make the first reps faster, but the extra “pre” tension will tier the working muscle out sooner and in the end will give you less reps.

Other very simple example. Do a few airsquats. Do both squats with no tension and squats where you first flex the legs. The second squads will go faster. But again, you would not be able to do as many reps as with without pre tension.

Also, to do a max single rep, we need al the tension we have already at the start of the movement, just to hold the weight. There is no extra “pre” tension possible, cause there is no more.

[frankencrank]

Read the abstract and it only looks at power per stroke, not at timed results over a certain distance. Rowing is ofcourse not about single strokes, but a (long) series of ones.

Yes, but if power per stroke improvement (and stroke rate) can be maintained then the possibility of long-term improvement is there.

Looking at the graph, the stroke would be different at the catch. There we see a steeper curve. The way I understand this is the following, instead of starting the stroke from a as much as possible relax state, you first contract the muscles concentric. This would mean flexing both the quadriceps and hamstrings. Only flexing the quadriceps is of course not possible, this would start the drive.

Doesn't anyone use the glutes anymore.

The result will be that the muscle already has tension at the start of the catch, so per stroke, there is sooner and thus overall more energy to give. So yes a single stroke like this has more power.

My understanding is the middle curve is the pre-tensioning curve. The highest curve was the pause without pretensioning by my reading. The improvement came about simply because of a more explosive application of the power.

But now, why this won’t work, the body has a limited amount of energy to use. This energy needs to be used as efficient as possible, muscles should only contract if this aids the wanted movement. Any other contraction is waisted energy.

The body does have a limited amount of energy to use but it is not necessarily limited by the amount of energy you can use now. That is the benefit of training. The body can increase the amount of energy it can use over time with training (duh) and by using more muscle mass (why cross country skiers have higher VO2 max than runners). Our bodies adapt to repeated stress. therefore, your assessment that this cannot possibly work is wrong. You can't do it out of the box but, with time and training, you should be able to do this.

So my conclusion is, yes, pre contracting the muscle will give a stronger single stroke. At the same time, this pre contracting will cost energy and in the end make the rower slower. The rason being, there is less energy left for the actual rowing, the static pre contraction will use up energy that can’t be used for rowing itself.
But, the highest curve didn't involve pre-contraction, by my read. It will not make the rower slower if either the rower can sustain it (anaerobic effort for a sprint for instance) or it is applied at a more efficient part of the stroke (the applied force is much more efficient at driving the shell when the oar is perpendicular to the shell than when at another angle - the further from perpendicular the less efficient by the cosine of the angle).

Example, try this out. Use a squat or benchpress or whatever. Use a weight where you know you can do a certain amount of reps. Say 20, just an example. 2k would be 200 strokes maybe.

Now on different days, do the movement as efficient as possible, this would give you your “normal” max reps.
On an other day, do the movement, with pre contraction, this will make the first reps faster, but the extra “pre” tension will tier the working muscle out sooner and in the end will give you less reps.

Other very simple example. Do a few airsquats. Do both squats with no tension and squats where you first flex the legs. The second squads will go faster. But again, you would not be able to do as many reps as with without pre tension.

What if you trained yourself to do that extra work? Here is another thought experiment. take your squat example. You can do 200 full squats (30 per minute) carrying 40 lbs (no you can't as you also have to lift your body weight). So, look at it another way. Say you weigh 100 kg. How many full squats can you do in 5 minutes?. If each squat raises the body 20 cm we can calculate the amount of work done and the work rate. Now, do half squats. You will only be raising the body half as much (10 cm) but can you do more than twice as many half squats. My guess is yes. If you can you are doing more work and at a higher work rate. You will be able to do so because you are using the same joints and muscles more efficiently. Technique can matter when trying to optimize work done.

Also, to do a max single rep, we need al the tension we have already at the start of the movement, just to hold the weight. There is no extra “pre” tension possible, cause there is no more.

In rowing we are not talking max single rep as rowing is not power lifting. Maximizing rowing power involves maximizing the use of the available muscles to transfer energy to the water to drive the boat. There are lots of variables involved in that equation. This study only addresses one of them.

[frankencrank]

I understand that flex then contract produces more power than static (pause) then contract. I am not knowledgable enough to explain why that is the case. But, for my purposes, I don’t need to. I just need to know that if I don’t pause at the catch I will go faster than if I do.

So, you know what you know but don't care to try to understand and explain a study result that seems to contradict what you know. Is that correct?

The study suggests that doing something different than what people do now might result in a power increase. Is there anything that can be learned from this study that can be applied to what people actually do? I say there is and it doesn't necessarily involve pausing at the catch.

No, that’s not correct. I know what I know and the study confirms what I know.

Then, I don't understand what you are saying. Can you tell me how this study confirmed how you believe rowing power can be maximized? I read it as power was maximized when there was a pause before the catch. What did I miss?

[Tony Cook]

So, you know what you know but don't care to try to understand and explain a study result that seems to contradict what you know. Is that correct?

The study suggests that doing something different than what people do now might result in a power increase. Is there anything that can be learned from this study that can be applied to what people actually do? I say there is and it doesn't necessarily involve pausing at the catch.

No, that’s not correct. I know what I know and the study confirms what I know.

Then, I don't understand what you are saying. Can you tell me how this study confirmed how you believe rowing power can be maximized? I read it as power was maximized when there was a pause before the catch. What did I miss?

Well I read it that power was maximised without a pause at the catch, so one of has got it wrong.

[frankencrank]

No, that’s not correct. I know what I know and the study confirms what I know.

Then, I don't understand what you are saying. Can you tell me how this study confirmed how you believe rowing power can be maximized? I read it as power was maximized when there was a pause before the catch. What did I miss?

Well I read it that power was maximised without a pause at the catch, so one of has got it wrong.

I think the clue that you got it wrong is I think the title would not be "doing what you normally do results in a 10% increase from doing something different" if you were correct. I will try to go get something more for you though.

[frankencrank]

No, that’s not correct. I know what I know and the study confirms what I know.

Then, I don't understand what you are saying. Can you tell me how this study confirmed how you believe rowing power can be maximized? I read it as power was maximized when there was a pause before the catch. What did I miss?

Well I read it that power was maximised without a pause at the catch, so one of has got it wrong.

You are correct. I misread which was which. That was indeed a strange title in view of the findings and not sure why it was. Anyhow, it would seem the main takeaway from this study is rapid application of power is better than not. It is not clear to me if the participants could perform the same on the other techniques if they had been trained to do so. As I said in another post (or thread), when someone is asked to do something other than what they have been trained to do they will most assuredly test poorly.

[frankencrank]

No, that’s not correct. I know what I know and the study confirms what I know.

Then, I don't understand what you are saying. Can you tell me how this study confirmed how you believe rowing power can be maximized? I read it as power was maximized when there was a pause before the catch. What did I miss?

Well I read it that power was maximised without a pause at the catch, so one of has got it wrong.

OK. could you help me understand figure 2? I tried to post an image but failed.
I do not understand the B side Force as a function of handle speed.

[alien878]

Think of it this way. At the end of the recovery, the muscles are under tension to stop the forward movement. If there is a pause at the catch, this tension is lost and has to be built up again resulting in a poor catch.

The same thing probably applies to the end of the stroke. However, the loss is much less because the recovery uses much less muscle power.

Allen

[hjs]

Read the abstract and it only looks at power per stroke, not at timed results over a certain distance. Rowing is ofcourse not about single strokes, but a (long) series of ones.

Yes, but if power per stroke improvement (and stroke rate) can be maintained then the possibility of long-term improvement is there.

This was not researched, so “possibly” is just speculation. I say it will “likely” spill energy

Looking at the graph, the stroke would be different at the catch. There we see a steeper curve. The way I understand this is the following, instead of starting the stroke from a as much as possible relax state, you first contract the muscles concentric. This would mean flexing both the quadriceps and hamstrings. Only flexing the quadriceps is of course not possible, this would start the drive.

Doesn't anyone use the glutes anymore.
You forget the calves and shins and lats and feet etc..

The result will be that the muscle already has tension at the start of the catch, so per stroke, there is sooner and thus overall more energy to give. So yes a single stroke like this has more power.

My understanding is the middle curve is the pre-tensioning curve. The highest curve was the pause without pretensioning by my reading. The improvement came about simply because of a more explosive application of the power.

But now, why this won’t work, the body has a limited amount of energy to use. This energy needs to be used as efficient as possible, muscles should only contract if this aids the wanted movement. Any other contraction is waisted energy.

The body does have a limited amount of energy to use but it is not necessarily limited by the amount of energy you can use now. That is the benefit of training. The body can increase the amount of energy it can use over time with training (duh) and by using more muscle mass (why cross country skiers have higher VO2 max than runners). Our bodies adapt to repeated stress. therefore, your assessment that this cannot possibly work is wrong. You can't do it out of the box but, with time and training, you should be able to do this.

So my conclusion is, yes, pre contracting the muscle will give a stronger single stroke. At the same time, this pre contracting will cost energy and in the end make the rower slower. The rason being, there is less energy left for the actual rowing, the static pre contraction will use up energy that can’t be used for rowing itself.
But, the highest curve didn't involve pre-contraction, by my read. It will not make the rower slower if either the rower can sustain it (anaerobic effort for a sprint for instance) or it is applied at a more efficient part of the stroke (the applied force is much more efficient at driving the shell when the oar is perpendicular to the shell than when at another angle - the further from perpendicular the less efficient by the cosine of the angle).

Example, try this out. Use a squat or benchpress or whatever. Use a weight where you know you can do a certain amount of reps. Say 20, just an example. 2k would be 200 strokes maybe.

Now on different days, do the movement as efficient as possible, this would give you your “normal” max reps.
On an other day, do the movement, with pre contraction, this will make the first reps faster, but the extra “pre” tension will tier the working muscle out sooner and in the end will give you less reps.

Other very simple example. Do a few airsquats. Do both squats with no tension and squats where you first flex the legs. The second squads will go faster. But again, you would not be able to do as many reps as with without pre tension.

What if you trained yourself to do that extra work? Here is another thought experiment. take your squat example. You can do 200 full squats (30 per minute) carrying 40 lbs (no you can't as you also have to lift your body weight). So, look at it another way. Say you weigh 100 kg. How many full squats can you do in 5 minutes?. If each squat raises the body 20 cm we can calculate the amount of work done and the work rate. Now, do half squats. You will only be raising the body half as much (10 cm) but can you do more than twice as many half squats. My guess is yes. If you can you are doing more work and at a higher work rate. You will be able to do so because you are using the same joints and muscles more efficiently. Technique can matter when trying to optimize work done.

Making the squat deep does not change the pre tension or not. Yes at lower dept we can squat more, but still without pretension we still would outsquat the pretension.

Also, to do a max single rep, we need al the tension we have already at the start of the movement, just to hold the weight. There is no extra “pre” tension possible, cause there is no more.

In rowing we are not talking max single rep as rowing is not power lifting. Maximizing rowing power involves maximizing the use of the available muscles to transfer energy to the water to drive the boat. There are lots of variables involved in that equation. This study only addresses one of them.

Indeed, at the end of the race nobody feels they needed more strenght but we needed more endurance. Its relative easy to put in more energy per stroke, from stroke 2, maybe even already stroke 1 we are holding back. Pre tension is not using using extra muscle, its using the muscle longer.

The only thing the study showed was pre tension does make the stroke stronger. Which should have been clear right away, see my examples aboves. There was no study done on actual rowingspeed.
There are not extra muscles used (ski example) muscle are only getting less rest and used more during the recovery fase. This could be without a pauze or maybe even with. Without further evidence everything we now know points at this making rowing slower. There is a waist of energy and there are no extra muscle used, so getting fitter due to using “more of the body” is not an option.

[frankencrank]

Read the abstract and it only looks at power per stroke, not at timed results over a certain distance. Rowing is ofcourse not about single strokes, but a (long) series of ones.

Yes, but if power per stroke improvement (and stroke rate) can be maintained then the possibility of long-term improvement is there.

This was not researched, so “possibly” is just speculation. I say it will “likely” spill energy

Looking at the graph, the stroke would be different at the catch. There we see a steeper curve. The way I understand this is the following, instead of starting the stroke from a as much as possible relax state, you first contract the muscles concentric. This would mean flexing both the quadriceps and hamstrings. Only flexing the quadriceps is of course not possible, this would start the drive.

Doesn't anyone use the glutes anymore.
You forget the calves and shins and lats and feet etc..

The result will be that the muscle already has tension at the start of the catch, so per stroke, there is sooner and thus overall more energy to give. So yes a single stroke like this has more power.

My understanding is the middle curve is the pre-tensioning curve. The highest curve was the pause without pretensioning by my reading. The improvement came about simply because of a more explosive application of the power.

But now, why this won’t work, the body has a limited amount of energy to use. This energy needs to be used as efficient as possible, muscles should only contract if this aids the wanted movement. Any other contraction is waisted energy.

The body does have a limited amount of energy to use but it is not necessarily limited by the amount of energy you can use now. That is the benefit of training. The body can increase the amount of energy it can use over time with training (duh) and by using more muscle mass (why cross country skiers have higher VO2 max than runners). Our bodies adapt to repeated stress. therefore, your assessment that this cannot possibly work is wrong. You can't do it out of the box but, with time and training, you should be able to do this.

So my conclusion is, yes, pre contracting the muscle will give a stronger single stroke. At the same time, this pre contracting will cost energy and in the end make the rower slower. The rason being, there is less energy left for the actual rowing, the static pre contraction will use up energy that can’t be used for rowing itself.
But, the highest curve didn't involve pre-contraction, by my read. It will not make the rower slower if either the rower can sustain it (anaerobic effort for a sprint for instance) or it is applied at a more efficient part of the stroke (the applied force is much more efficient at driving the shell when the oar is perpendicular to the shell than when at another angle - the further from perpendicular the less efficient by the cosine of the angle).

Example, try this out. Use a squat or benchpress or whatever. Use a weight where you know you can do a certain amount of reps. Say 20, just an example. 2k would be 200 strokes maybe.

Now on different days, do the movement as efficient as possible, this would give you your “normal” max reps.
On an other day, do the movement, with pre contraction, this will make the first reps faster, but the extra “pre” tension will tier the working muscle out sooner and in the end will give you less reps.

Other very simple example. Do a few airsquats. Do both squats with no tension and squats where you first flex the legs. The second squads will go faster. But again, you would not be able to do as many reps as with without pre tension.

What if you trained yourself to do that extra work? Here is another thought experiment. take your squat example. You can do 200 full squats (30 per minute) carrying 40 lbs (no you can't as you also have to lift your body weight). So, look at it another way. Say you weigh 100 kg. How many full squats can you do in 5 minutes?. If each squat raises the body 20 cm we can calculate the amount of work done and the work rate. Now, do half squats. You will only be raising the body half as much (10 cm) but can you do more than twice as many half squats. My guess is yes. If you can you are doing more work and at a higher work rate. You will be able to do so because you are using the same joints and muscles more efficiently. Technique can matter when trying to optimize work done.

Making the squat deep does not change the pre tension or not. Yes at lower dept we can squat more, but still without pretension we still would outsquat the pretension.

Also, to do a max single rep, we need al the tension we have already at the start of the movement, just to hold the weight. There is no extra “pre” tension possible, cause there is no more.

In rowing we are not talking max single rep as rowing is not power lifting. Maximizing rowing power involves maximizing the use of the available muscles to transfer energy to the water to drive the boat. There are lots of variables involved in that equation. This study only addresses one of them.

Indeed, at the end of the race nobody feels they needed more strenght but we needed more endurance. Its relative easy to put in more energy per stroke, from stroke 2, maybe even already stroke 1 we are holding back. Pre tension is not using using extra muscle, its using the muscle longer.

The only thing the study showed was pre tension does make the stroke stronger. Which should have been clear right away, see my examples aboves. There was no study done on actual rowingspeed.
There are not extra muscles used (ski example) muscle are only getting less rest and used more during the recovery fase. This could be without a pauze or maybe even with. Without further evidence everything we now know points at this making rowing slower. There is a waist of energy and there are no extra muscle used, so getting fitter due to using “more of the body” is not an option.

First let me apologize for my "snarky" remarks earlier. I completely misread the paper the first time and got everything backwards. I am usually much better than that. I think I can explain why but that is just making excuses.

The one thing I don't like about studies like this is we don't know if a period of training of the new technique might have made the pause or pretensioning efforts similar or, even, larger. Most people perform best in these "ask them to do something different" studies doing what they do normally. That was the case here. I think it would be a waste of effort and time to try to do this but that is an issue with such studies. This happens commonly in cycling studies where participants are asked to pedal in a different fashion (pedal in circles, pull up on back stroke, etc.) and then this is compared to what they normally do.

I really question whether the "pogo stick" effect plays much of a role in rowing as the movements are too smooth, small, and slow compared to say, someone jumping.

Don't say "using more of the body is not an option" until you know how I would intend to use more of the body. It is possible and I would expect power improvements of at least 10% (more like 25%) with enough time training the new technique.