Q For Mel Harbour

[[old] Ralph Earle]

Mel, <br /><br />The UK ARA steady-state AT band, 75-85%MHRR, r24-28, corresponds to 82-86% of Gold Standard 2K Pace. For someone with a 7:00 2K, 86% of @1:45 is 2:02.1.<br /><br />If the high end of AT is one's pace for r20 30min, then that pace is 2K+17. But wouldn't an r28 30min PB be no slower than 2K+10?<br /><br />Should r28 30min PB be 7s faster than r20?<br /><br />More to the point, if you're at 85%MHRR, you're running out of heart beats -- where/how do you get the remaining 14% of GS? <br /><br />- Ralph<br /><br /><br /><br />

[[old] Xeno]

<!--QuoteBegin-Ralph Earle+Aug 20 2005, 05:04 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Ralph Earle @ Aug 20 2005, 05:04 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Mel, <br /><br />The UK ARA steady-state AT band, 75-85%MHRR, r24-28, corresponds to 82-86% of Gold Standard 2K Pace.  For someone with a 7:00 2K, 86% of @1:45 is 2:02.1.<br /><br />If the high end of AT is one's pace for r20 30min, then that pace is 2K+17.  But wouldn't an r28 30min PB be no slower than 2K+10?<br /><br />Should r28 30min PB be 7s faster than r20?<br /><br />More to the point, if you're at 85%MHRR, you're running out of heart beats -- where/how do you get the remaining 14% of GS? <br /><br />- Ralph <br /> </td></tr></table><br />Hello Ralph<br />I was intrigued by your post and I would like to see the initial study.<br />"More to the point, if you're at 85%MHRR, you're running out of heart beats -- where/how do you get the remaining 14% of GS? "<br />If we talk about MAX Gold Standart, then this is a flat out performance.<br />The final push to hit Gold Medal standart is done mainly through an absolute sprint. The heart rate at that point does not increase anymore, because it is at MAX. The speed increase on the ergo or on water comes from anaerobic energy production.<br />XENO

[[old] Mel Harbour]

<!--QuoteBegin-Ralph Earle+Aug 20 2005, 05:04 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Ralph Earle @ Aug 20 2005, 05:04 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Mel, <br /><br />The UK ARA steady-state AT band, 75-85%MHRR, r24-28, corresponds to 82-86% of Gold Standard 2K Pace.  For someone with a 7:00 2K, 86% of @1:45 is 2:02.1.<br /><br />If the high end of AT is one's pace for r20 30min, then that pace is 2K+17.  But wouldn't an r28 30min PB be no slower than 2K+10?<br /><br />Should r28 30min PB be 7s faster than r20?<br /><br />More to the point, if you're at 85%MHRR, you're running out of heart beats -- where/how do you get the remaining 14% of GS? <br /><br />- Ralph <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />An AT session isn't flat out. It shouldn't max your body out physically.<br /><br />I'm not 100% convinced about some of the percentages in terms of ergo sessions (they are from a boat).<br /><br />Remember that all the training bands are much better defined in terms of the lactate level at the time. Xeno's probably the best to comment further about the specifics of this, since he's got the most access to physiological data about himself. The 30' r20 ergo is more like the lowest intensity that an AT session would be performed at. It approximates about 3.5-4mmol/l lactate (lactate threshold). AT work is done at, or just above, threshold (up to 10 bpm above threshold as a guideline).<br /><br />There's a significant difference between doing an AT training session and doing a long flat out session. Both have places in a training plan, but shouldn't be considered to be the same thing.<br /><br />Mel

[[old] Xeno]

<!--QuoteBegin-Mel Harbour+Aug 21 2005, 09:19 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Mel Harbour @ Aug 21 2005, 09:19 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Ralph Earle+Aug 20 2005, 05:04 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Ralph Earle @ Aug 20 2005, 05:04 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Mel, <br /><br />The UK ARA steady-state AT band, 75-85%MHRR, r24-28, corresponds to 82-86% of Gold Standard 2K Pace.  For someone with a 7:00 2K, 86% of @1:45 is 2:02.1.<br /><br />If the high end of AT is one's pace for r20 30min, then that pace is 2K+17.  But wouldn't an r28 30min PB be no slower than 2K+10?<br /><br />Should r28 30min PB be 7s faster than r20?<br /><br />More to the point, if you're at 85%MHRR, you're running out of heart beats -- where/how do you get the remaining 14% of GS? <br /><br />- Ralph <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />An AT session isn't flat out. It shouldn't max your body out physically.<br /><br />I'm not 100% convinced about some of the percentages in terms of ergo sessions (they are from a boat).<br /><br />Remember that all the training bands are much better defined in terms of the lactate level at the time. Xeno's probably the best to comment further about the specifics of this, since he's got the most access to physiological data about himself. The 30' r20 ergo is more like the lowest intensity that an AT session would be performed at. It approximates about 3.5-4mmol/l lactate (lactate threshold). AT work is done at, or just above, threshold (up to 10 bpm above threshold as a guideline).<br /><br />There's a significant difference between doing an AT training session and doing a long flat out session. Both have places in a training plan, but shouldn't be considered to be the same thing.<br /><br />Mel <br /> </td></tr></table><br />Hi Mel<br />Since I came from a small national team we did not figure out AT Gold Standart, there were just not enough rowers. The 30' at stroke rate 20 is a great AT "max" workout/test.<br />XENO

[[old] Ralph Earle]

Thanks, Mel and Xeno, for your replies. <br /><br />Xeno, I put Mel's original ARA table into a spreadsheet which takes any 2K target time ("Gold Standard") and calculates the UT2, UT1 and AT band paces. I'll email you a copy.<br /><br />- Ralph<br /><br />

[[old] Citroen]

<!--QuoteBegin-Ralph Earle+Aug 21 2005, 07:13 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Ralph Earle @ Aug 21 2005, 07:13 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Thanks, Mel and Xeno, for your replies.  <br /><br />Xeno, I put Mel's original ARA table into a spreadsheet which takes any 2K target time ("Gold Standard") and calculates the UT2, UT1 and AT band paces.  I'll email you a copy.<br /><br />- Ralph <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />This spread sheet may interest you: <a href='http://stevev.wirelessusers.co.uk/Lacta ... gBands.xls' target='_blank'>http://stevev.wirelessusers.co.uk/Lacta ... xls</a><br /><br />See the thread about it at: <a href='http://www.concept2.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7223' target='_blank'>http://www.concept2.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7223</a>

[[old] Mel Harbour]

<!--QuoteBegin-Xeno+Aug 21 2005, 11:43 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Xeno @ Aug 21 2005, 11:43 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Hi Mel<br />Since I came from a small national team we did not figure out AT Gold Standart, there were just not enough rowers.  The 30' at stroke rate 20 is a great AT "max" workout/test.<br />XENO <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Perhaps you could give us some examples of speeds you used to scull at (presumably you know target splits for various pieces). Since we can guess (roughly) what your best sculling time would have been, we could see how well they correlate.<br /><br />As a reminder, the current ARA guidelines are something like:<br /><br />UT2 - sub 2mmol/l (but may need a trained eye as not everyone has top of UT2 at 2mmol/l). Target % of gold standard: 70-76%, rate 17-18 (so for Xeno in a single, probably 2:19 - 2:08).<br />UT1 - from top of UT2 as far as lactate threshold (established from step test - usually around 4mmol/l). Target % of gold standard: 77-82%, rate 19-23 (Xeno in a single around 2:07 - 1:59)<br />AT - from lactate threshold to about 10 bpm above lactate threshold. Target % of gold standard: 82-86%, rate 24-28 (Xeno: 1:59 - 1:53).<br />TR - up to lactate of about 8mmol/l. Target % 87-95%. Rate 28-36. (Xeno: 1:52 - 1:42).<br /><br />Note that being Gold standard times, these are based on perfect conditions (enough tailwind to get you moving nice and quick without making it impossible to row!). Day-to-day times are likely to be a bit slower than these. They're also slightly more recent PGS than for 96/00 Olympics, so likely to be very slightly faster.<br /><br />Anyway, Xeno, how did the sort of splits you'd train at when you were at your best match up with these?<br /><br />Mel

[[old] Ralph Earle]

There is a large discrepancy between the two sets of training bands, alas.<br /><br />For Gold Standard (GS) @1:47.5 (7:10 2K), Steve Viney's spreadsheet has UT2 = @2:15.4, UT1 = @2:07.5, AT = @2:01.1.<br /><br />For the same GS, the upper end of the ARA bands are UT2 = @2:21.4, UT1 = @2:11.1, AT = @2:05.0.<br /><br />While I would love to believe the ARA bands, I fear Mr. Viney's (which are validated by the GB Sydey 8+) are much closer to predicting 2K ability from training results.<br /><br />Comment, alle vous?<br /><br />

[[old] Mel Harbour]

<!--QuoteBegin-Ralph Earle+Aug 22 2005, 01:20 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Ralph Earle @ Aug 22 2005, 01:20 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->There is a large discrepancy between the two sets of training bands, alas.<br /><br />For Gold Standard (GS) @1:47.5 (7:10 2K), Steve Viney's spreadsheet has UT2 = @2:15.4, UT1 = @2:07.5, AT = @2:01.1.<br /><br />For the same GS, the upper end of the ARA bands are UT2 = @2:21.4, UT1 = @2:11.1, AT = @2:05.0.<br /><br />While I would love to believe the ARA bands, I fear Mr. Viney's (which are validated by the GB Sydey 8+) are much closer to predicting 2K ability from training results.<br /><br />Comment, alle vous? <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />The spreadsheet is based on some ergo testing data from before Sydney. This is what I mean about the ergo times being a bit different from those in a boat. Steve's spreadsheet was based on some data I supplied anyway, so I guess I'm broadly the source of both!<br /><br />Mel