7:48.7 -> 7:30

[[old] peeb]

Hi all,<br /><br />I started rowing in Jan. My 2K time gradually wended its way down<br />to 7:48.7 by about May. Then I started reading this forum and realised<br />that there was really a right way to row, and I started trying strapless<br />rowing and getting a lower SPM. I didn't bother with keeping times<br />much during that period, but over the last few days, I decided to have another<br />crack at footstrapped 2K to see where I had got to. Here are my times -<br /> 7:53.0<br /> 7:47.3<br /> 7:49.9<br />You can probably see the problem. Now someone might say 'you have<br />plateaued out, mate, some people are just 7:47-ers and that's all there is<br />to it'. But not, I trust, the members of the Concept 2 training forum... so<br />here's a question - how do I reduce my 2K time to 7:30 in the next three <br />months?<br /><br />Currently I train 6-7 times per week. Typically 7500m rowing (in some<br />sort of breakdown e.g. 500m warmup, 2K speedy, 5K relaxed, 250m hard sprint), <br />then 15 mins on a gym bike, then some light weights. I do the 2K at about<br />25spm, start off with speed in low 1:50s, then it goes up to 2:00, then finish<br />in the low 1:50s. I am sort of irritated by that 7:47 time beaming up at me from <br />the Concept 2 display, so just let me know what to do, time and effort no object <br /><br />Paul.<br />

[[old] michaelb]

After reading this forum and rowing (not really seriously) for years, I think the simple answer is there are no simple answers. Rowing is hard; it takes hard work. I may row 1 hard 2k per year, not 3 in a week.<br /><br />I would just guess that your average training day is not hard enough rowing to really improve much in terms of 2k speed. It is neither speed work or endurance work. So I would be tempted to focus on building endurance for a couple of months, hard 30 min rows and 10ks and farther. Then work on speed before the next test. <br /><br />I would also say the pacing on your 2k seems to variable. I wouldn't want the pace to vary by more than a second or two throughout. So go out in 1:56 and hold that pace til the end.

[[old] neilb]

As Michael says it is hard work.<br /><br />Longer rows (30 min, 10k, 60 min) will build endurance and cv capability.<br /><br />Shorter work (2k, 1k, 500m intervals) will help develop speed and mental toughness for 2k work.<br /><br />Strapless will help technique<br /><br />Low spm WITH same splits will help build more powerful stroke. <br /><br />Use the longer rows with a capped spm and try and bring he splits down over time; this way you will build endurance and more power. Then with speed work to get "comfortable" at higher spm you can go for 2k.<br /><br />You get out what you put in.<br /><br />Neil

[[old] peeb]

OK thanks Michael, thanks Neil.<br /><br />I can see that I was overrating the worth of my current daily <br />training, by thinking it should have been pushing down my <br />2K times. I will take your advice, starting with longer rows.<br />In fact I have never rowed more than 10K, so that will be <br />new territory,<br /><br />Paul.<br /><br /><br /><br /><!--QuoteBegin-neilb+Aug 9 2005, 03:18 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(neilb @ Aug 9 2005, 03:18 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As Michael says it is hard work.<br /><br />Longer rows (30 min, 10k, 60 min) will build endurance and cv capability.<br /><br />Shorter work (2k, 1k, 500m intervals) will help develop speed and mental toughness for 2k work.<br /><br />Strapless will help technique<br /><br />Low spm WITH same splits will help build more powerful stroke.  <br /><br />Use the longer rows with a capped spm and try and bring he splits down over time; this way you will build endurance and more power.  Then with speed work to get "comfortable" at higher spm you can go for 2k.<br /><br />You get out what you put in.<br /><br />Neil <br /> </td></tr></table><br />

[[old] neilb]

<!--QuoteBegin-peeb+Aug 9 2005, 08:33 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(peeb @ Aug 9 2005, 08:33 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I will take your advice, starting with longer rows.<br />In fact I have never rowed more than 10K, so that will be <br />new territory,<br /><br />Paul.<br /> <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Paul,<br /><br />Just remember it is the quality of what you do that makes the difference; good quality rowing over longer distances will make a difference.<br /><br />A 10k session will be very beneficial. Bear in mind that it is training not racing and so the pace needs to reflect this. Not too fast but fast enough to ensure you are working hard enough.<br /><br />I suggest you use the forum and the training guide available from the UK site to work out approx training pace for 10k based on current 2k PB and then use this as a guide. Over time the split for same perceived exertion will fall as you get fitter etc. You may need to try a few sessions to get suitable pace time.<br /><br />Speed work on the shorter sessions will also help translate these improvements into real benefits over 2k. <br /><br />You may even start to find that the 10k sessions become quite enjoyable as you settle into nice steady rhythm, fairly low spm (22-24?) and good strong stroke.<br /><br />Neil<br /><br />

[[old] TomR/the elder]

When I began erging several years ago, I had lots of athletic experience, but none as an endurance athlete. The good news is that the benefits of longer training start showing up quickly. At the same time, what I've read suggests that the body takes years to adapt fully endurance training.<br /><br />Don't stop at 10k. Do 60 minute rows. Some day you may even find yourself rowing half marathons--or even a full marathon.<br /><br />Tom

[[old] Citroen]

<!--QuoteBegin-peeb+Aug 9 2005, 02:37 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(peeb @ Aug 9 2005, 02:37 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Currently I train 6-7 times per week.  Typically 7500m rowing (in some<br />sort of breakdown e.g. 500m warmup, 2K speedy, 5K relaxed, 250m hard sprint), <br />then 15 mins on a gym bike,  then some light weights.  I do the 2K at about<br />25spm, start off with speed in low 1:50s, then it goes up to 2:00, then finish<br />in the low 1:50s. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />If I want to try a very quick 2K, I'll row a 5K warm-up. (I've usually cycled 5K from home to the gym as well.)<br /><br />A 500m warm-up isn't enough, not by any stretch. You need to do, at least, 10 minutes.

[[old] peeb]

My longest row ever tonight - 50 minutes and it felt OK so I<br />will bump it up to 60 minutes next to make a round 1 hour. <br />My pace is very variable - I<br />was trying to go for quality as Neil suggested but even with a <br />steady spm and a _feeling_ that I was pulling evenly, my pace<br />still varies a lot (+/- 2 seconds between successive strokes<br />sometimes). I am going to try to figure out what causes that.<br /><br />One extra question - at the forward position of the stroke, I always<br />try to get my hands as far forward as the handle can go. But when<br />I start the pull back, there seems to be about 1 inch of pull back of<br />no effort before I meet the resistance of the flywheel. Is that normal,<br />or is it an indication of something bad with my timing?<br /><br />Thanks all,<br />Paul.<br /><br /><!--QuoteBegin-Citroen+Aug 10 2005, 01:04 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Citroen @ Aug 10 2005, 01:04 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-peeb+Aug 9 2005, 02:37 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(peeb @ Aug 9 2005, 02:37 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Currently I train 6-7 times per week.  Typically 7500m rowing (in some<br />sort of breakdown e.g. 500m warmup, 2K speedy, 5K relaxed, 250m hard sprint), <br /><br />then 15 mins on a gym bike,  then some light weights.  I do the 2K at about<br />25spm, start off with speed in low 1:50s, then it goes up to 2:00, then finish<br />in the low 1:50s. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />If I want to try a very quick 2K, I'll row a 5K warm-up. (I've usually cycled 5K from home to the gym as well.)<br /><br />A 500m warm-up isn't enough, not by any stretch. You need to do, at least, 10 minutes. <br /> </td></tr></table><br />

[[old] Hood50]

<!--QuoteBegin-peeb+Aug 11 2005, 07:55 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(peeb @ Aug 11 2005, 07:55 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->One extra question - at the forward position of the stroke, I always<br />try to get my hands as far forward as the handle can go.  But when<br />I start the pull back, there seems to be about 1 inch of pull back of<br />no effort before I meet the resistance of the flywheel.  Is that normal,<br />or is it an indication of something bad with my timing?<br /> </td></tr></table><br />Do you mean you're trying to extend as far forward as possible(as in, reaching for the monitor)? Or that you're just letting your arms extend until they're parallel?<br /><br />If you're trying to stretch your body toward the monitor, you could be putting yourself out of proper positioning. As one of my coaches would say, you want to keep your body in a "position of rowing strength". Even though stretching further than your body wants to swing forward will give you more length, it won't help the strength of your stroke. You'll end up wasting energy bringing your body back into that strong position, and you could also hurt your back if you strain it in the wrong way. If you're having this issue, it could be a cause of your varying splits<br /><br />The "no effort" at the beginning of your pullthrow could mean you're slightly shooting your slide (<a href='http://www.concept2.co.uk/guide/guide.p ... cal_faults' target='_blank'>the UK C2 site has more info on this</a>). To quote them:<br />"The legs push away too early, the back is not braced and so the power is not transferred onto the handle."

[[old] neilb]

Paul,<br /><br />Yes, too much reach forward can be bad for you.<br /><br />The aim is to have the back flat but inclined forward from the hips. If your flexibility is good you can get a good lean forward but you should not overcompensate for poor flexibility by allowing the shoulders and upper back to "roll" forward. This simply means that your back is not properly engaged when the drive starts and hence the "shooting the slide".<br /><br />Start the recovery with your arms going forward and then move the uper body forward from the hips so it is inclined forward but with the back flat. Keep this position as you move up the slide and do not allow the shins to go past vertical.<br /><br />If this leaves you short of the gate then so be it; work on your flexibility in the gym but do not over reach on the erg.<br /><br />Keep that back nice and engaged in that position as you initiate the drive from the glutes. (Butt goes back and legs go down.)<br /><br />Getting same split every stroke is hard, particularly if also trying to maintain same spm. I would work at the stroke and not worry too much about this. <br /><br />What split and spm do you work at?<br /><br />If you want to make 60 min more varied you can try using say 8 watts per stroke and the doing say 20, 22, 24 spm in 5 min blocks trying to always keep at 8 watts per stroke. This will challenge you in terms of maintaining that nice steady stroke.<br /><br />Neil

[[old] swavo1]

Before you take a 2k you should prolly do a 10-15 min. warm up. You're pace shouldn't be fast, I'll have my split as high as 3:00. However, you ideally want to start sweating and get the blood flowing. You should go easy with a couple of power 10's (at least this works 4 me)

[[old] btreacy]

<!--QuoteBegin-peeb+Aug 8 2005, 08:37 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(peeb @ Aug 8 2005, 08:37 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Hi all,<br /><br />I started rowing in Jan.  My 2K time gradually wended its way down<br />to 7:48.7 by about May.  Then I started reading this forum and realised<br />that there was really a right way to row, and I started trying strapless<br />rowing and getting a lower SPM.  I didn't bother with keeping times<br />much during that period, but over the last few days, I decided to have another<br />crack at footstrapped 2K to see where I had got to.  Here are my times -<br />  7:53.0<br />  7:47.3<br />  7:49.9<br />You can probably see the problem.  Now someone might say 'you have<br />plateaued out, mate, some people are just 7:47-ers and that's all there is<br />to it'.  But not, I trust, the members of the Concept 2 training forum... so<br />here's a question - how do I reduce my 2K time to 7:30 in the next three <br />months?<br /><br />Currently I train 6-7 times per week.  Typically 7500m rowing (in some<br />sort of breakdown e.g. 500m warmup, 2K speedy, 5K relaxed, 250m hard sprint), <br />then 15 mins on a gym bike,  then some light weights.  I do the 2K at about<br />25spm, start off with speed in low 1:50s, then it goes up to 2:00, then finish<br />in the low 1:50s.  I am sort of irritated by that 7:47 time beaming up at me from <br />the Concept 2 display, so just let me know what to do, time and effort no object <br /><br />Paul. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Have you tried the 2000m 16 nweek training program on this web site i am doing it at present and it seems quite good<br />

[[old] peeb]

Thanks everyone for replies. Yep my 2K warmup was very<br />short. And thanks for the pointer to the 2K training <br />program - didn't know about that and it's just what I was asking about.<br /><br />I tried 60 min last night with an eye on keeping my back straight. <br />I can see the benefit of a coach, even if it's just for one session, <br />to check your form. Anyway in this new position, the handle <br />stops a good two inches short of the gate, so I might <br />have some real gains if I improve my hip flexibility.<br /><br />Neil - my spm is about 25 and split was 2.12 on the 50 min, and 2.13<br />on the 60 min. Those times are out-of-kilter slow with my 2K. The 50 min row,<br />I deliberately pitched at an easy level to get a feel of the longer distance. <br />Then I started the 60 min intending to do 2.07 average but I <br />suffered very complete poop-out long before the end. So endurance<br />is something that I need to work on, and I'm going to be switching to that for<br />a while. Thanks for the suggestion about different spms. I have in my <br />previous training tried fast 1Ks at a sequence of spms, to try to get spm <br />reliability, but I wasn't using the watts reading and I'll be<br />interested to find out how that feels at different spms.<br /><br />Good rowing everyone!<br />Paul.<br /><br /><br /><br /><!--QuoteBegin-btreacy+Aug 12 2005, 11:31 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(btreacy @ Aug 12 2005, 11:31 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-peeb+Aug 8 2005, 08:37 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(peeb @ Aug 8 2005, 08:37 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Hi all,<br /><br />I started rowing in Jan.  My 2K time gradually wended its way down<br />to 7:48.7 by about May.  Then I started reading this forum and realised<br />that there was really a right way to row, and I started trying strapless<br />rowing and getting a lower SPM.  I didn't bother with keeping times<br />much during that period, but over the last few days, I decided to have another<br />crack at footstrapped 2K to see where I had got to.  Here are my times -<br />  7:53.0<br />  7:47.3<br />  7:49.9<br />You can probably see the problem.  Now someone might say 'you have<br />plateaued out, mate, some people are just 7:47-ers and that's all there is<br />to it'.  But not, I trust, the members of the Concept 2 training forum... so<br />here's a question - how do I reduce my 2K time to 7:30 in the next three <br />months?<br /><br />Currently I train 6-7 times per week.  Typically 7500m rowing (in some<br />sort of breakdown e.g. 500m warmup, 2K speedy, 5K relaxed, 250m hard sprint), <br />then 15 mins on a gym bike,  then some light weights.  I do the 2K at about<br />25spm, start off with speed in low 1:50s, then it goes up to 2:00, then finish<br />in the low 1:50s.  I am sort of irritated by that 7:47 time beaming up at me from <br />the Concept 2 display, so just let me know what to do, time and effort no object <br /><br />Paul. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Have you tried the 2000m 16 nweek training program on this web site i am doing it at present and it seems quite good <br /> </td></tr></table><br />

[[old] peeb]

<!--QuoteBegin-neilb+Aug 12 2005, 03:17 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(neilb @ Aug 12 2005, 03:17 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><br />If you want to make 60 min more varied you can try using say 8 watts per stroke and the doing say 20, 22, 24 spm in 5 min blocks trying to always keep at 8 watts per stroke.  This will challenge you in terms of maintaining that nice steady stroke.<br /><br />Neil <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />p.s. I searched a bit around this site and the uk site, but couldn't pin<br />down the following - what's the relationship between the '8 watts' above<br />and the much larger watt reading that appears when I set the PM3<br />to show watts? <br />

[[old] Gregg]

I actually had the same 2k time as you this year during the season. It was my first year rowing and I had the same dilemma. I started the year rowing an 8:08 and dropped about 10 seconds a month training 3 days a week on the erg. Then it seemed that I had plateud. I was stuck at around a 7:45 range when I started running. Running 2-8 miles a day 5 days a week. I was also rowing on the water around this time, in about a month's work I got back on the erg and pulled a 7:31, for me running long distances works better than erging, and I feel better afterward...to each his own I suppose.