Endurance erging - A place to discuss 42, 50, 100k upwards.

[GlennUk]

A few of us form the Sub7 forum we discussing endurance distances, anything from Marathon, 50k, 60k (for me) 100k, 116K (again for me).

having spent some time looking for threads/discussions on this issue, seems like a good idea t have a pplace for those interested in erging for endurance' events'

Not sure if this is worthy of being pinned for future reference?

[Rod]

Sounds interesting Glenn, having done a 100k back in September I've gradually worked my way down in distance to the Marathon, Half Marathon and now training for crack at improving my PB for 60 minutes around the end of March.

Once I've got all the way down to a bit of sprinting (ouch...I hate the short stuff!) I'll work back up again...well it keeps me off the streets!

It would be interesting to hear from any others on here who may be interested in rowing the longer distances......we can't be the only crazy fools around here Glenn.....or can we?

[GlennUk]

Rod

I know when i started researching for training plans initially it was difficult to find anything on here, a lot of interesting stuff. Seeing your post and reference to Eddie was a godsend for me.

Id been using the RowPro training plan for a marathon, but found that the proposed HGR ranges were so low for me that even inthe 'fast' reps i was barely able to row below 2:30! As much as i am not world champ, i found it frustrating.

Eddies plan being based on individual HR Max as opposed to something based on ones age alone, and with the ability to get support if required seems to me to be a really good route.

I am thinking about hydration and nutrition too, especially for the longer of my rows. Not just how much but the mechanics of specifically drinking. Any thoughts from you/others on how you managed this would be interesting?

[Dangerscouse]

I'm building up to do another 100k sometime soon, but is the intention of this thread to provide advice, comments on current training or something else?

With regards to your question Glenn, personally I have found hydration to be different to all that I have read. It's usually recommended to drink every 15 minutes, but I've found it works better for me to not drink for the first 30-40 minutes, and then every 25-30 minutes, or when I genuinely feel thirsty, and not just when I think I should drink. I have found pieces of banana to be more beneficial to keep me going, especially as you progress as fructose is a better energy source than glucose after about 1.5 hours of exercise.

It might be important to note that I do drink a lot everyday (probably circa 4.5 litres, mainly from water, but some green tea and coffee too) and I'm quite used to exercising dehydrated as I don't drink or eat anything if it's less than 30k, and I've done hot dynamic Pilates for years, which is circa 30c. Accordingly this strategy may not work for everyone. I regularly lose 3kgs in a FM+ distance but it doesn't seem to affect me.

I always drink one handed as I don't like to stop, so I set up the bottles with the lids up, within reach so I can easily grab them. I've tried using a water bladder, but it's far too much effort to get it moving so it's not worth the hassle imo.

My preference is 50/50 diluted fruit juice (apple and mango atm) with some sugar and salt added (the glucose in the sugar makes the fructose easier to absorb), but I also have a whey protein shake to give me some protein, as well as plain water. I sometimes have energy gels close to hand too, but I generally don't bother with them

I have tried to eat jelly beans but my mouth is too dry to cope with them, so I just have them for when I'm finished, or maybe if I have a rest if it's an ultra distance.

I think the single most important thing to do is confirm what works for you, as you maybe comprising performance by following the 'rules', or someone else's opinion. We are all very different, and not many things will highlight that more than an ultra distance.

[Rod]

I am thinking about hydration and nutrition too, especially for the longer of my rows. Not just how much but the mechanics of specifically drinking. Any thoughts from you/others on how you managed this would be interesting?

I don't drink anything on rows below Marathon distance as I really don't see the need but when going as far as a FM I use a plastic milk carton with a flexible plastic tube which my wife holds and moves along with me so I don't have to slow too much to drink from it.

I use a mix of Carb powder and Electrolyte 'tablets' in it but am careful not to take in too much as I don't want to be needing to stop to go to the loo!

I also eat Honey Sandwiches (cut up very small so just a piece at a time), Bananas (again....broken into pieces) and Jelly babies which as with the drink my wife (who is also a rower) feeds me. I eat/drink every 30 mins in the first 2 hours but no more after that.

I have plenty the couple of days before and a couple of hours before the row too.

[Two Pudding Kid]

In marathon (last one 2020) and 50k (last one 2017) I didnt stop that often but around 1 min 15 secs each time in training firstly after 75 minutes and then probably every 40 minutes. In racing there was usually a stool or bench to put the food on which saved some of the time (if not the upturned box that I had carried my supplies in would do to reach to). Initially I used to try and row one handed and drink at the same time, but more recently I would put the handle down and eat/drink with 2 hands. I guess as a HWT you dont have to worry about piling on the weight before the event - a wanabee LWT had to weigh in and eat after. . You may need to sort out who is going to keep the monitor ticking over if you need to take a stop unless you can find an automated way of doing it, (I guess you have an audience or support team planned). I tend to eat energy gels, chocolate and watered down lucozade, (at least the chocolate melts if you get it stuck in your throat but I would be worried about scoffing more solid stuff). PS If you are eating chocolate buttons try not to pour them in straight out of the bag as I missed and dropped them all over the floor at one training session

[GlennUk]

I'm building up to do another 100k sometime soon, but is the intention of this thread to provide advice, comments on current training or something else?

The idea was to provide a thread where those interested in endurance erging could discuss training plans, nutrition, hydration, anything to do with erging longer distances and durations. There are a lot of separate threads spread about but if youre searching difficult to find IME.

I always drink one handed as I don't like to stop, so I set up the bottles with the lids up, within reach so I can easily grab them. I've tried using a water bladder, but it's far too much effort to get it moving so it's not worth the hassle imo.

My preference is 50/50 diluted fruit juice (apple and mango atm) with some sugar and salt added (the glucose in the sugar makes the fructose easier to absorb), but I also have a whey protein shake to give me some protein, as well as plain water. I sometimes have energy gels close to hand too, but I generally don't bother with them

I have tried to eat jelly beans but my mouth is too dry to cope with them, so I just have them for when I'm finished, or maybe if I have a rest if it's an ultra distance.

I think the single most important thing to do is confirm what works for you, as you maybe comprising performance by following the 'rules', or someone else's opinion. We are all very different, and not many things will highlight that more than an ultra distance.

Im trying to decide whether to drink as you doi i.e. single handed or come up with something along the lines Rod mentions. I am tending towards the KISS principle which means bottle, tops up arranged within reach.

Given psychology is a critical part of endurance events, i dont want to have the worry that the 'system' is not going to work, bottles seems relatively straight forward.

With your drink, did you have a specific recipe ?

[GlennUk]

I don't drink anything on rows below Marathon distance as I really don't see the need but when going as far as a FM I use a plastic milk carton with a flexible plastic tube which my wife holds and moves along with me so I don't have to slow too much to drink from it.

I use a mix of Carb powder and Electrolyte 'tablets' in it but am careful not to take in too much as I don't want to be needing to stop to go to the loo!

I also eat Honey Sandwiches (cut up very small so just a piece at a time), Bananas (again....broken into pieces) and Jelly babies which as with the drink my wife (who is also a rower) feeds me. I eat/drink every 30 mins in the first 2 hours but no more after that.

I have plenty the couple of days before and a couple of hours before the row too.

Thanks Rod that's interesting re drinking, had thought of rigging up a large container with fluids and a tube with some kind of 'squeeze' valve on the end

Having spent some time reading its interesting to hear others experiences, I intend to be as well prepared as i can and hydration is not necessarily my biggest worry in terms of taking on fluids, but rather making sure i dont under/over hydrate and lead to problems.

Im with you re taking on fluids at shorter distances though, i am drinking now, because I want to be comfortable with drinking over the longer distances and understand how much i can take on realistically. If for no other ereaosnt han if i do want to drink a lot i have enough and don't run out, dont mind flushing a couple of litres down the sink afterwards of course.

[Dangerscouse]

Im trying to decide whether to drink as you doi i.e. single handed or come up with something along the lines Rod mentions. I am tending towards the KISS principle which means bottle, tops up arranged within reach.

Given psychology is a critical part of endurance events, i dont want to have the worry that the 'system' is not going to work, bottles seems relatively straight forward.

With your drink, did you have a specific recipe ?

Bottles are a simple solution, but you do have to be careful when you pick them up / put them down to avoid knocking them over.

The fruit juice is as simple as 50/50 diluted with water, a tablespoon of sugar and teaspoon of salt. I also have Tailwind powders but I'm not convinced that they are any better than fruit juice, but if you do want to try a powder, I'd recommend Tailwind, not least as I know of a few triathletes who always use them.

[GlennUk]

In marathon (last one 2020) and 50k (last one 2017) I didnt stop that often but around 1 min 15 secs each time in training firstly after 75 minutes and then probably every 40 minutes. In racing there was usually a stool or bench to put the food on which saved some of the time (if not the upturned box that I had carried my supplies in would do to reach to). Initially I used to try and row one handed and drink at the same time, but more recently I would put the handle down and eat/drink with 2 hands. I guess as a HWT you dont have to worry about piling on the weight before the event - a wanabee LWT had to weigh in and eat after. . You may need to sort out who is going to keep the monitor ticking over if you need to take a stop unless you can find an automated way of doing it, (I guess you have an audience or support team planned). I tend to eat energy gels, chocolate and watered down lucozade, (at least the chocolate melts if you get it stuck in your throat but I would be worried about scoffing more solid stuff). PS If you are eating chocolate buttons try not to pour them in straight out of the bag as I missed and dropped them all over the floor at one training session

Thanks Susan,

re weight, as it goes, i think the ideal for me is to be as close to my 'ideal' weight as possible which means losing about 3kgs (depending on how my scales feel on any given day that is).

I did some simple calcs using my current weight of 84kgs estimate that over 10hr row (my est for my 116k row is 10-12hrs) @20spm (3x20x600) I will have to accelerate and move the equivalent of 36tonnes more, up and down the slide, than if i dont lose/control my weight.

Quite sobering to think in terms like this i think.

Re the drinking, eating, i tend to hold the handle one handed and drink with the other, and gely move up and down the slide.

I haven't got into eating, drinking and erging all at the same time yet. More fun to come!

[fischmeister]

Waow, lots to learn for me

My longest row yet was a little over 30k, want to do my first marathon in the near future. Since I discovered rowing in Zwift I have totally shifted from dedicated 2k training to endurance rowing. My goals are now finishing long routes in Zwift, rowing up Alpe d´Huez or even Ventoux, or just having fun in group rides (or races). And all of a sudden rowing distances around 20k became everyday life.

I´m not yet at a point where I try to eat or drink one-handed; I need the short break to stand up briefly, at least when the duration gets longer than 90 minutes. That´s okay for me, I feel a lot better afterwards and those few lost seconds are worth it.

After one year of Zwift endurance rowing I tried my first 2k test after more than a year. I was totally unsure how to pace it, but it worked out perfect - got a totally unexpected new PB!

[GlennUk]

As an update, i have been recording my resting HR as i don't have a smart watch thingy have been borrowing my son's old Garmin.

Before i started on Eddie Fletchers Marathon/100k plan, I used the same device for 7 days, wearing it 24/7 and got a RHR value of 58, Jan 2021.

As of today, my RHR is now down to 53 according to the same watch after wearing it a week.

It is one of the measurable benefits of this type of training but at 60, and given i had been undertaking 'restricted' HR training already was not sure how much benefit i would sse.

I have just finished W4 and have looked back at W1 for comparison, I found that in most areas i am doing much better i.e. my HR/pace/stroke rate all show 'minimal drift' from the values I am working to, the one thing i find hardest in these terms is the low rate/slow pace/low HR work outs.

No doubt things will improve with constant efforts.

I´m not yet at a point where I try to eat or drink one-handed; I need the short break to stand up briefly, at least when the duration gets longer than 90 minutes. That´s okay for me, I feel a lot better afterwards and those few lost seconds are worth it.

After one year of Zwift endurance rowing I tried my first 2k test after more than a year. I was totally unsure how to pace it, but it worked out perfect - got a totally unexpected new PB!

I think were all learning to be frank.

Re the getting up, that's my biggest worry, numb posterior i use one of these https://citius-remex.com/ and find that (assuming I am wearing nothing with a seam in the wrong place) that this delays the onset of such issues. Be Interesting to see how it goes as my sessions get longer. Have to say that is a bit odd when you 1st use it, but i do find it is better suited to me that the C2 seat/plus C2 pad i was using.

Be interested to hear what other solutions are adopted for marathon plus duration rows by others.

[Rod]

the one thing i find hardest (to improve) in these terms is the low rate/slow pace/low HR work outs.No doubt things will improve with constant efforts.

I've not really improved much, if at all on these rows Glenn and Eddie has said that's normal so I wouldn't worry about the numbers changing a lot as time goes on although maybe you'll see more difference than me as you're starting from a different place I think as I had done a lot of it before working with Eddie.

Re the getting up, that's my biggest worry, numb posterior i use one of these https://citius-remex.com/ and find that (assuming I am wearing northing which a seam in the wrong place) that this delays the onset of such issues. Be Interesting to see how it goes as my sessions get longer. Have to say that is a bit odd when you 1st use it, but i do find it is better suited to me that the C2 seat/plus C2 pad i was using.

Be interested to hear what other solutions are adopted for marathon plus duraiont rows by others.

I use my Citeus Remex on top of two C2 'Delux' rubber seat pads.....absolute botty luxury!

[GlennUk]

I've not really improved much, if at all on these rows Glenn and Eddie has said that's normal so I wouldn't worry about the numbers changing a lot as time goes on although maybe you'll see more difference than me as you're starting from a different place I think as I had done a lot of it before working with Eddie.

That's interesting, i find the rowing at DMP is easy but i have struggled to do all reps in a session at or close to it AND keep my HR below the threshold apart from the 1st rep.

However, on the 'faster' reps i have found the opposite that i am not only achieving the HR/spm targets but exceeding the paces.

I suspect you're right on the places we are starting from, not erging for a few years means i have a lot of catching up to do that's for sure.

I use my Citeus Remex on top of two C2 'Delux' rubber seat pads.....absolute botty luxury!

Two seat pads underneath, i only have one, will give it a try and maybe invest in some other enhancements

Out of curiosity did you have to get off the erg during your 100k and if so often/how long?

[Rod]

That's interesting, i find the rowing at DMP is easy but i have struggled to do all reps in a session at or close to it AND keep my HR below the threshold apart from the 1st rep.

I was referring to the 18 spm low HR sessions only Glenn not the DMP sessions or anything faster than that, I always hope to see improvement on those as the plan progresses.

Out of curiosity did you have to get off the erg during your 100k and if so often/how long?

No I didn't get off at all, I was chasing the world record so couldn't take any risks with dropping the pace as I would have wasted too much energy trying to get it back.....although having said that I did lose around 30 seconds when I stopped after about 30 minutes to get rid of a layer of bubble wrap I'd added to the seat pad set up....putting it there was a bad mistake so I paid for breaking the golden rule of not doing anything different on the day that I'd done before....I'd not fully tested the bubble wrap on a long row...very silly of me.

I didn't need to go to the loo which was unusual for so long but may have been helped by the slightly warm conditions. When I do it again (yes I'm daft enough to repeat it as I think I can do a much better time...) I'll be doing it under a Gazeebo on the decking/patio outside the back door of our house and in all honesty if I feel the need to ''go'' will just have to do it as I row because again...I have to be careful about losing time when the margins are so tight.