Looking for tips to get faster

[CarlNY]

Hi,

My first post having just registered on the forum

Been using a C2 on and off since about age 22 (now 48) although only really trained in earnest in 2014 and this season. Covered 1750km since May 2020 due to lockdown.

I’ve had some steady improvements in all times and I’m happy enough with PB’s for my age although a long way off top percentile.

Wanted to ask what kind of training I should consider if say I wanted to get my 2km down to 6:30 (6:55 PB) and my 5km down to 17:30 (18:35 PB)

I’ve recently focused on doing long sessions at about 18-20 rate and have found benefit in both technique and strength however I’ve no idea what I need to do now to create a step change in my times.

Carl

[Tsnor]

Great question and the subject of lots of academic research. Your current workout is "long sessions at about 18-20 rate". What heart rate / perceived effort level are you hitting?

Research seems to say that long to very long slow workouts should make up 80-90% of your training load by time, and that the remaining workouts should be intense. Failure to have both components results in fitness gains followed by plateau with little additional benefit from increased effort (e.g. work harder does not help)

For the long slow workouts the most common error is working too hard. Based on research I've cut my heart rate rowing long pieces from 150 down to 135-140. It was/is very hard for me to work at this easy pace vs harder, but the evidence is compelling that this is the right strategy. Almost total agreement on the need for long slow distance workouts across all sports and all distance events. The typical workout durations for long slow distance are minimum 45 mins/session, typical 90 mins/session and much longer for cycling. Typical 4 to 6 sessions/week. I use 60-90 mins for my long sessions rowing, and alternate those on some days with 90 min cycling sessions. (My recumbent bike trainer is great if my back is complaining). Lowered resting heart rate is the most obvious indicator of successful long slow distance training. You'll also see higher output at a constant heart rate, and internally you'll build capillaries, grow the left side of your heart, add mitochondria, etc.

Studies show elite cyclists who only did long/slow actually lost fitness compared to how they started and did much less well than cyclists who mixed mainly long slow work with a few intense sessions. So you need some intense work.

There is some dispute on how often and how intense to make the other workouts, with some studies getting best results from "hard" and others from "super hard". No data seems to support doing these workouts at "threshold level" or "moderately hard". Intervals give better results for hard workout than straight continuous work. Intervals have higher impact on performance, lower perceived effort, less "stress" damage following the sessions so better recovery. There is debate on the best type of interval workouts. Some studies show better results from very short intervals (say 10-14 reps of 30 seconds at absolute max followed by 15 second recovery), others say longer intervals (say 4 reps of 2K at highest output you can sustain and still complete all four 2Ks) are just as good. I don't see a clear winner in the studies so am switching between short 30 sec, 2K intervals, 500meter intervals, etc. All intervals have up to 2 min rest between work. Studies show more than 2 mins rest does not help. For me I target total intense workout time as roughly 30 minutes of work with 20 min warmup.

The consensus on hard workouts is make sure to give at least one rest day, preferably two between intense sessions. Do not do back to back hard days. Do not let the long, slow days creep into hard days. 2 hard sessions a week seems a good target.

If you want references let me know. I've been looking at this for me, planning on getting back on a masters on-water racing team this fall after 14 months totally shut down. I started around thanksgiving and have a little more than 500k meters rowed plus some time on the bike. I went too hard and have had to totally stop twice for 4 days each time (hand once, back once). You have a good base, so are less apt to hit the "don't start up too hard" problems common when shifting to more intense workloads. So far this approach has not made me into superman, but i'm older (63) and it takes time to see benefits as you get older.

Good luck.

[jamesg]

One way is to look at what's needed.

2k/6½' is 380 Watts. If done at say 32, the stroke must be worth 380/32 = 12 Watt-minutes. This implies endurance work at around 20/220W and 23/260W. The selection of a 12 W-min stroke depends mainly on your height and technique.

For more detail on how, a 2k test and some pieces based on Wolverine L4 tables will help, using your 2k test time as baseline.

For complete plans, see something from these (about 200) progressive schedules, up to 26 weeks length:
http://3.8.144.21/training/interactive

Ergdata can help too, since it shows us stroke length and force, though with some approximation. The quickest way to see what your stroke is worth is to do a 500m at constant rating.

[Dangerscouse]

Welcome to the forum Carl.

What pace and distance are you doing your r18-20 sessions, what else are you doing and over how many days? Building a stronger stroke is very useful, but you also need to make sure that there is progression, even if it's slow progress. For example, I started doing my longer distances at 2:05 pace for r18, but over the past six months this is now at 2:01 with the same HR.

There are a lot of variations that work for people. Some thrive off the 'Go Hard or Go Home', and others need 'Go Slow to Get Fast', and some will really benefit from a mixture. Personally, I have tried all of them over the years, and I have found the most sustainable option is a mixture, but more focused on slow and long sessions.

If your main focus is the 2k and the 5k, you need to focus on tough intervals with slow and long base sessions.

Examples for the intervals could be 4 x 2k on three mins rest (start on r22, then r24, 26, & r28). I started on 5k pace +5 and increased by circa 2-2.5 seconds if that's any help. Or 4 x 10 mins three mins rest at r24, keeping to 90% of max HR, or 90% of your perceived limit if you've not got a HR monitor. There are also the usual intervals eg 6 x 750m; 8 x 500m; 4 x 1k etc.

In addition to the intervals, and long slow distances, do some occasional hard, but not max effort, 10k or 30 minute sessions at a free rate.

[Tony Cook]

For complete plans, see something from these (about 200) progressive schedules, up to 26 weeks length:
http://3.8.144.21/training/interactive

Ergdata can help too, since it shows us stroke length and force, though with some approximation. The quickest way to see what your stroke is worth is to do a 500m at constant rating.

I recommend to follow the link ^
I was in a similar position as the OP and after a couple of months of getting used to the erg through Dark Horse Rowing row alongs and a could of cycles of the Pete Plan I did 16 weeks of the interactive Concept 2 plan. 6 sessions a week and knocked 20 seconds off my 2k PB.
I can see that it’s not for everyone as it relies heavily on timed sessions (some like distance) and working in HR zones - some don’t do, or like HR training.
As always, I can’t say it’s the best plan, because I can’t go back and do those 16 weeks again with a different plan to see if I could have gone quicker, but I certainly found it beneficial and my fitness increased as I was able to go for longer, quicker at lower HR.
Currently following the Wolverine Plan but only a couple of months in and no TT as yet. More mileage now, average 80k a week on Concept, now doing 110k average and feeling stronger in the fast sessions 8 x 500/ 4 x 1k.
Just have to give it a try and be patient, it’s a long term goal.

[CarlNY]

Great question and the subject of lots of academic research. Your current workout is "long sessions at about 18-20 rate". What heart rate / perceived effort level are you hitting?

Research seems to say that long to very long slow workouts should make up 80-90% of your training load by time, and that the remaining workouts should be intense. Failure to have both components results in fitness gains followed by plateau with little additional benefit from increased effort (e.g. work harder does not help)

For the long slow workouts the most common error is working too hard. Based on research I've cut my heart rate rowing long pieces from 150 down to 135-140. It was/is very hard for me to work at this easy pace vs harder, but the evidence is compelling that this is the right strategy. Almost total agreement on the need for long slow distance workouts across all sports and all distance events. The typical workout durations for long slow distance are minimum 45 mins/session, typical 90 mins/session and much longer for cycling. Typical 4 to 6 sessions/week. I use 60-90 mins for my long sessions rowing, and alternate those on some days with 90 min cycling sessions. (My recumbent bike trainer is great if my back is complaining). Lowered resting heart rate is the most obvious indicator of successful long slow distance training. You'll also see higher output at a constant heart rate, and internally you'll build capillaries, grow the left side of your heart, add mitochondria, etc.

Studies show elite cyclists who only did long/slow actually lost fitness compared to how they started and did much less well than cyclists who mixed mainly long slow work with a few intense sessions. So you need some intense work.

There is some dispute on how often and how intense to make the other workouts, with some studies getting best results from "hard" and others from "super hard". No data seems to support doing these workouts at "threshold level" or "moderately hard". Intervals give better results for hard workout than straight continuous work. Intervals have higher impact on performance, lower perceived effort, less "stress" damage following the sessions so better recovery. There is debate on the best type of interval workouts. Some studies show better results from very short intervals (say 10-14 reps of 30 seconds at absolute max followed by 15 second recovery), others say longer intervals (say 4 reps of 2K at highest output you can sustain and still complete all four 2Ks) are just as good. I don't see a clear winner in the studies so am switching between short 30 sec, 2K intervals, 500meter intervals, etc. All intervals have up to 2 min rest between work. Studies show more than 2 mins rest does not help. For me I target total intense workout time as roughly 30 minutes of work with 20 min warmup.

The consensus on hard workouts is make sure to give at least one rest day, preferably two between intense sessions. Do not do back to back hard days. Do not let the long, slow days creep into hard days. 2 hard sessions a week seems a good target.

If you want references let me know. I've been looking at this for me, planning on getting back on a masters on-water racing team this fall after 14 months totally shut down. I started around thanksgiving and have a little more than 500k meters rowed plus some time on the bike. I went too hard and have had to totally stop twice for 4 days each time (hand once, back once). You have a good base, so are less apt to hit the "don't start up too hard" problems common when shifting to more intense workloads. So far this approach has not made me into superman, but i'm older (63) and it takes time to see benefits as you get older.

Good luck.

Thanks for the detailed reply Tsnor, much appreciated. I actually prefer long steady sessions at UT2 and AT to the gut wrenching all out efforts which I tend to do less frequently. I typically either keep my HR at or around 140 or alternatively go for a moderate pace at (say) 150-160 bpm.

The whole thing has got kind of mixed up lately as I used to row at 24-28 rate depending on effort and lately I’ve forced myself to row around 20 rate. This feels intuitively positive and I have sore abs this week although ultimately it’s not as absolutely fast

Carl

[CarlNY]

One way is to look at what's needed.

2k/6½' is 380 Watts. If done at say 32, the stroke must be worth 380/32 = 12 Watt-minutes. This implies endurance work at around 20/220W and 23/260W. The selection of a 12 W-min stroke depends mainly on your height and technique.

For more detail on how, a 2k test and some pieces based on Wolverine L4 tables will help, using your 2k test time as baseline.

For complete plans, see something from these (about 200) progressive schedules, up to 26 weeks length:
http://3.8.144.21/training/interactive

Ergdata can help too, since it shows us stroke length and force, though with some approximation. The quickest way to see what your stroke is worth is to do a 500m at constant rating.

Thanks James,

Your numerical approach is a good take and appeals a lot. Being able to target a particular output feels sensible to me. I just need to force myself to do more intervals. I hate setting out to do tough interval sessions. It kind of takes away any pleasure from my rowing although realise it’s an important aspect of training.

I’ve seen mention of Wolverine Tables although not actually seen them. Will see if I can find them

Carl

[CarlNY]

Welcome to the forum Carl.

What pace and distance are you doing your r18-20 sessions, what else are you doing and over how many days? Building a stronger stroke is very useful, but you also need to make sure that there is progression, even if it's slow progress. For example, I started doing my longer distances at 2:05 pace for r18, but over the past six months this is now at 2:01 with the same HR.

There are a lot of variations that work for people. Some thrive off the 'Go Hard or Go Home', and others need 'Go Slow to Get Fast', and some will really benefit from a mixture. Personally, I have tried all of them over the years, and I have found the most sustainable option is a mixture, but more focused on slow and long sessions.

If your main focus is the 2k and the 5k, you need to focus on tough intervals with slow and long base sessions.

Examples for the intervals could be 4 x 2k on three mins rest (start on r22, then r24, 26, & r28). I started on 5k pace +5 and increased by circa 2-2.5 seconds if that's any help. Or 4 x 10 mins three mins rest at r24, keeping to 90% of max HR, or 90% of your perceived limit if you've not got a HR monitor. There are also the usual intervals eg 6 x 750m; 8 x 500m; 4 x 1k etc.

In addition to the intervals, and long slow distances, do some occasional hard, but not max effort, 10k or 30 minute sessions at a free rate.

Thanks Dangerscouse,

I tend to do a mix of 30min or 60 mins at around 1:58-2:04 as my moderate sessions and more like 2:08-2:12 for my UT2 sessions. I try then to keep it fresh by throwing in (say) 3x20mins or even a more full bloodied 20 or 30min session at 1:50-1:56

I suspect I also need to get my head round some shorter more intense sessions although I hate that sensation of getting close to max HR and seeing my output fade

Carl

[CarlNY]

For complete plans, see something from these (about 200) progressive schedules, up to 26 weeks length:
http://3.8.144.21/training/interactive

Ergdata can help too, since it shows us stroke length and force, though with some approximation. The quickest way to see what your stroke is worth is to do a 500m at constant rating.

I recommend to follow the link ^
I was in a similar position as the OP and after a couple of months of getting used to the erg through Dark Horse Rowing row alongs and a could of cycles of the Pete Plan I did 16 weeks of the interactive Concept 2 plan. 6 sessions a week and knocked 20 seconds off my 2k PB.
I can see that it’s not for everyone as it relies heavily on timed sessions (some like distance) and working in HR zones - some don’t do, or like HR training.
As always, I can’t say it’s the best plan, because I can’t go back and do those 16 weeks again with a different plan to see if I could have gone quicker, but I certainly found it beneficial and my fitness increased as I was able to go for longer, quicker at lower HR.
Currently following the Wolverine Plan but only a couple of months in and no TT as yet. More mileage now, average 80k a week on Concept, now doing 110k average and feeling stronger in the fast sessions 8 x 500/ 4 x 1k.
Just have to give it a try and be patient, it’s a long term goal.

Thanks Tony, will check it out. I’ve never really followed any kind of plan, tend to keep it spontaneous as I’m worried I’ll get bored and lose interest if it becomes too regimented. Do you have a link for the Wolverine Plan you mentioned?

Carl

[Dangerscouse]

The whole thing has got kind of mixed up lately as I used to row at 24-28 rate depending on effort and lately I’ve forced myself to row around 20 rate. This feels intuitively positive and I have sore abs this week although ultimately it’s not as absolutely fast

Don't fall into the trap that faster has to be better. I never consider SPI (Stroke Power Index) but there is an inverse relationship with lower stroke rates and an ostensibly slower pace. This is watts divided by strokes, so when you do a lower stroke rate and slower pace, it doesn't always mean it's easier.

Keep doing a variety of distances, stroke rates and timed sessions as I think you need to master a range of stroke rates and intensities so you don't just concentrate on what naturally feels right.

A max effort 30r20 every 2 or 3 weeks is a good idea too, as this will give you an idea of progress, along with a great workout.

[Big J]

The whole thing has got kind of mixed up lately as I used to row at 24-28 rate depending on effort and lately I’ve forced myself to row around 20 rate. This feels intuitively positive and I have sore abs this week although ultimately it’s not as absolutely fast

Don't fall into the trap that faster has to be better. I never consider SPI (Stroke Power Index) but there is an inverse relationship with lower stroke rates and an ostensibly slower pace. This is watts divided by strokes, so when you do a lower stroke rate and slower pace, it doesn't always mean it's easier.

Keep doing a variety of distances, stroke rates and timed sessions as I think you need to master a range of stroke rates and intensities so you don't just concentrate on what naturally feels right.

A max effort 30r20 every 2 or 3 weeks is a good idea too, as this will give you an idea of progress, along with a great workout.

I agree.

Going slow to go fast seems to be the way. Reduce your stroke rate, improve the efficiency of each stroke and nail the form. You'll go slower on a rate capped row and your heart rate will be higher than for a free rate row.

But then when you come to push yourself on a free rate row, you'll find that those efficiency savings you've mastered on your 30r20s will come into their own.

That said, I can only reflect on my own experience and even my max effort shorter pieces are at quite a low rate. I can't hold 30 SPM + for very long really.

[CarlNY]

The whole thing has got kind of mixed up lately as I used to row at 24-28 rate depending on effort and lately I’ve forced myself to row around 20 rate. This feels intuitively positive and I have sore abs this week although ultimately it’s not as absolutely fast

Don't fall into the trap that faster has to be better. I never consider SPI (Stroke Power Index) but there is an inverse relationship with lower stroke rates and an ostensibly slower pace. This is watts divided by strokes, so when you do a lower stroke rate and slower pace, it doesn't always mean it's easier.

Keep doing a variety of distances, stroke rates and timed sessions as I think you need to master a range of stroke rates and intensities so you don't just concentrate on what naturally feels right.

A max effort 30r20 every 2 or 3 weeks is a good idea too, as this will give you an idea of progress, along with a great workout.

I agree.

Going slow to go fast seems to be the way. Reduce your stroke rate, improve the efficiency of each stroke and nail the form. You'll go slower on a rate capped row and your heart rate will be higher than for a free rate row.

But then when you come to push yourself on a free rate row, you'll find that those efficiency savings you've mastered on your 30r20s will come into their own.

That said, I can only reflect on my own experience and even my max effort shorter pieces are at quite a low rate. I can't hold 30 SPM + for very long really.

I’m gambling on that approach too.

I’ve just done a 15k at 2:04 and 19 rate and still found it challenging. My HR finished up at 165 even though I was only averaging 184 watts. When I started my abs were already sore from similar session on Sunday, when I finished my abs and back were aching badly. I suspect it’s the added load of improved technique. I’m really focusing on a good catch, a drive and then a slight tilt before finishing.

About a week ago I did a ~40 min 20 rate session, very steady. Felt good so straight after had a crack at 5km in addition and ended up doing my all time PB of 18:35 at about 29 rate.

Felt (relatively) easy after doing so many low and slow sessions.

Carl

[KeithT]

You are looking to make about the same improvements I did at the same age too. So, it is possible. I think others have covered the idea of mixing in some intense pieces which are needed along with the low/slow work.

[jamesg]

when I finished my abs and back were aching badly.

This suggests you need to look at technique. Even the stretcher setting can cause problems, if too high; your height suggests set this as low as possible, so that you can get well forward and the weight on your feet before the catch. In principle, all the work in rowing should be done with the legs and hips, though maybe 10-15% can be done by other bits and pieces with little risk.

5k - 18.39 is clearly a good time, but at rate 29 suggests a relatively weak stroke (250W/29 = 8.6 W.min) for your size and age; again technique.

Height 1.92 and weight 112 kg gives a BMI of over 30 (using the ancient square rule), which could also make rowing difficult by damaging length and catch posture.

[mict450]

....so that you can get well forward and the weight on your feet before the catch. In principle, all the work in rowing should be done with the legs and hips, though maybe 10-15% can be done by other bits and pieces with little risk.

This has been the best advice I have ever received to emphasize the role of the legs!! Don't know where I read it....may well have been due to jamesg. Thank you.