More Slide Questions ( Sorry, Longish )

[old] Cayenne · Post by **[old] Cayenne** » July 17th, 2005, 11:22 am

Good Day Ergers, Question: Why Slides ? Background/Context: I do not and have never rowed on the water, and don't know when, if ever, I will. ( Quite engaged with work and family life, I feel fortunate just to have the time on the Model C in my basement, " Fortress of Solidtude".) I have used C2s for about 15+ years VERY sporadically. ( ie; several days in a row, then not at all for a couple weeks, etc.) My main motivations for exercise are: A) Joy of movement / converting negative emotional stress into positive physiological stress through breath and effort;

Maintenance of vitality for as long as G-d permits me to work at it ( 45 years old, husband and father of 5 year old twin boys...hope/pray to rock when I'm 90+ ) C) Health, which may be understood from the foregoing. ( I am ignorant of and somewhat intimidated by, much of the technical jargon here, although I expect to become more familiar with it...I tend to just get on the erg for time or distance and row with TV or music on my headphones...Ahhhhh ) Low back issues have been a concern for a long time. ( I have a spondylolisthesis and "probably" some other "stuff" that I never bothered to check via prescribed MRI- figured even if it's there, it's either drugs, surgery or PT...I opt for the "PT" which brings me to the C2 & other "fit toys" I "play" with. eg; Kettlebells, Exerstrider poles, Bosu, body weight cals, etc. ) So...I've heard great stuff about Slides, esp., for low back concerns, while others say, if form is right on ground-bound, it should not matter. Lately, with much greater attention to form, I've fallen "in love" with erging again and had the amazing notion that it can actually HELP my back/core if I become a form zealot, rather than view it as a, "uh-oh, this is gonna hurt my back". I'm leaning toward getting Xeno's form DVD and really making FORM a consistent mission. While cost is relative, I want to be careful about such a purchase and, as I've never tried slides nor do I have somewhere to try them, I'm going in "cold" ( Does C2 have a satisfaction guarantee ? ) So, in light of my saga, any input to my initial "broken record" question will be greatly appreciated. Best, Eddie

[old] FrankJ · Post by **[old] FrankJ** » July 17th, 2005, 12:48 pm

Eddie, My recommendation is get the slides. I have had a lower back disc problem for about 33 years. When I first had the problem the sciatic nerve pain was so intense that I passed out. With the help of a good physical therapist I learned to live with it and control it. I learned all of this many years before discovering the erg. Been using my C2 now for about 2.5 years and absolutely love it. When I first got online in the C2 forum I heard about slides but since I live in Maine and happened to be going to Vermont on vacation took the opportunity to visit C2 and try out slides. It was love at first slide so I bought a set on the spot. They were a bit of a snug fit in the Accord with all of the vacation luggage but well worth the effort to get the home. Erging does not bother my back partly because I have spent many years building core strength to control my back problem. That said it is still very easy to feel that there is less pressure on the back when using slides. Since you move the erg back and forth and not your body it is easier on the back to accelerate the smaller mass. To me it feels like I work my legs harder and my back less hard. It is difficult to describe but the difference is instantly felt. Get the slides your back will thank you.

[old] Cayenne · Post by **[old] Cayenne** » July 17th, 2005, 2:57 pm

Thanks Frank, I can appreciate being "The One" who wants to stop at C2, "while on vacation ?!", and adding slides to the vacation gear. ( Although you don't mention if you were alone or with others, my imagination is seeing the guy who "goes the extra mile" for his passion.) Way to go ! Also, thanks for the advice. It is very much appreciated. BTW, while I do a bunch of things to take care of my back & strengthen my core generally, I'm always interested to hear what others are successfully doing, especially as you worked with a PT, use an erg, and your 33 year history of back issues indicate that, like myself, you are, shall I say "of drinking age," ( even though I don't.) So, if you have the time, what's your "core" program Frank ? Stay strong, Eddie

[old] RacerX · Post by **[old] RacerX** » July 17th, 2005, 4:16 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE(Cayenne @ Jul 17 2005, 10:22 AM)</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Good Day Ergers, Low back issues have been a concern for a long time. ( I have a spondylolisthesis and "probably" some other "stuff" that I never bothered to check via prescribed MRI- figured even if it's there, it's either drugs, surgery or PT...I opt for the "PT" which brings me to the C2 & other "fit toys" I "play" with. eg; Kettlebells, Exerstrider poles, Bosu, body weight cals, etc. ) </td></tr></table> eddie, I know this is a question on slides, but please do yourself a favor and have that MRI. When it comes to your body, ignorance is not bliss. It sounds like you are doing everything you need to to keep it stable, but if things were to take a turn for the worse having a baseline developed with a good chiropractor at the least will serve you well. I speak from personal experience. I had bilateral spondylolisthesis and an L5/S1 fusion when I was 30. I was racing for the Nike tri team and dating the team chiropractor. We had good baseline data and she kept me racing (including 3 ironmans) for years. When it became apparent that the spine was continuing to move out of line, hitting nerves, we had plenty of ongoing x-rays to take to the orthopedic surgeons. They all said I needed surgery, though most wanted to put me in a partial body cast for rehab. Long story short, I chose a surgeon who agreed with a very aggresive rehab and did a triathlon 16 weeks after surgery. I am not advocating surgery here. But without the data, I would have had to monitor the condition until I was much more imparied. I am 45 now (with an 18 month old daughter). In addition to rowing both on water and erg, I maintain a pretty challenging vinyasa youga practice. And I snowboard, race motrocycles and generally feel 100%. If anyone had told me a could get up into wheel with my back I would never have believed them. So in addition to what you are already doing - I would add yoga and go to a good chiropractor. If you don't know one, I have always found the "CCSP" sports designation a good quality indicator. Off my soapbox now.... Aaron

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » July 17th, 2005, 4:35 pm

A friend of mine had chronic back problems and then fell off a roof, which certainly didn't help. He then got a c2 and the back problems went away. This was several years ago. He uses the regular erg, and with no assist from the slides. I haven't used slides but from posts on the forum, they certainly make rowing easier and might be easier on your back if your form is bad. However if your form is okay then the regular erg will be fine.

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » July 17th, 2005, 4:46 pm

On the slides there is much less weight to move, and the weight is leveraged in two different directions. This results in slides giving a 2 to 6% advantage in time, especially for heavier rowers. For a heavyweight half marathon this is at least 4 to 5 minutes. Thus a heavyweight rower who did 85 minutes on the erg, could quite possibly break 80 minutes with the slides.

[old] Cayenne · Post by **[old] Cayenne** » July 17th, 2005, 5:26 pm

Aaron & John: Thank you for the quality feedback. Aaron, I realize you are giving me " a word to the wise" and I do appreciate it. The "spondy" is x-ray confirmed as well as clinically diagnosed ( before the x-ray,) by a chiro ( while not my girlfriend ) that I have had a long term working relationship with. ( I think he has the advanced training designation you referred to.) I must admit, I do not get regular adjustments for a variety of reasons. I am most interested in the "self-care" approaches which, again, leads me back to the C2 and the other things I do. Your yoga practice is of interest to me. Great for you that you are so active. Have tons of fun with your daughter, destined be a fine athlete no doubt. Is "wheel" an asana ? ( Rhetorical question, I'll google an image.) Bottom line, your recovery is inspiring. Thanks for sharing the story. ( Please ascend the soapbox again soon and frequently. You obviously have loads of athletic experience and insights.) John, what I get from your replies, ( and again, I wish I could test the slides, but alas, I can not - unless there is a generous erger from L.I. N.Y. reading this, ) is that the main slide / ground difference is the weight, which would make it a form isssue. Hmmmmm, food for thought. Stay strong, Eddie

[old] FrankJ · Post by **[old] FrankJ** » July 17th, 2005, 5:55 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE(Cayenne @ Jul 17 2005, 06:57 PM)</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Thanks Frank, I can appreciate being "The One" who wants to stop at C2, "while on vacation ?!", and adding slides to the vacation gear. ( Although you don't mention if you were alone or with others, my imagination is seeing the guy who "goes the extra mile" for his passion.) Way to go ! Also, thanks for the advice. It is very much appreciated. BTW, while I do a bunch of things to take care of my back & strengthen my core generally, I'm always interested to hear what others are successfully doing, especially as you worked with a PT, use an erg, and your 33 year history of back issues indicate that, like myself, you are, shall I say "of drinking age," ( even though I don't.) So, if you have the time, what's your "core" program Frank ? Stay strong, Eddie </td></tr></table> When I started with PT. I was really in a lot of pain so it was relatively easy to figure out what worked and what didn't. I was also living in Toronto at the time with a great library system. Spent a lot of time researching back problems on my own. What worked well for me were the right kind of abdominal exercises. The theory is to strengthen the abs and other core muscles to hold everything in place. I also retaught myself how to lift properly. One of the biggest changes is that I taught myself to sit properly. At almost 6' 3" tall it is often difficult for my to find chairs that support me properly. Seats in cars are also a big issue. I will not buy a car until I have had the opportunity to sit in a car for at least a half hour and insure that my legs and back are properly supported. At work they bought me an Aeron chair and since I sit at a desk for close to 10 hours a day it is a big key to my back health. Does it make a difference. Yes it does it a big way. I am in process of building my own home. Literally building it myself. It is almost complete but this weekend I am building a fake stone retaining wall. They weigh about 65 pounds a piece and I've handled a good 100 or so along with shoveling stone, sand and dirt. Oh yeah, I did an online 6k race this morning. No problem. The back feels great. Frank

[old] fiftyeggs · Post by **[old] fiftyeggs** » July 17th, 2005, 7:33 pm

Would someone please lend Mr. Rupp some slides so he can learn what he's talking about and stop spouting from his alimentary canal? 5 minute improvement? Unlikely. Speaking as someone who has erged with and without, I am convinced they are a hindrance to time. I am equally convinced they improve technique, at least they have mine. One reason I am convinced of this is that it can be a bit of a challenge to row strapless on a slideless erg. With the slides the staps are an afterthought. Perhaps PaulS could speak to the reasons for this, I only know its smoother and more enjoyable with them. The slides don't hate you Mr. Rupp, they wait for you like a beautiful virgin princess and wish only to glide. Barry Delaney

[old] bgood · Post by **[old] bgood** » July 17th, 2005, 7:43 pm

I don't know why John Rupp is such an expert on slides if he has never used them (must be smoking some of that grass he eats). I don't think it's any easier rowing with slides and you're not going to break any records if you can't do it without the slides. I've never rowed on the water (if you don't count my little row boat on the 18th water hazard @ the Westhampton Beach Country Club 38 years ago), but I'm sure it's not any easier (time may go faster because you're not staying in one place). I bought my first C2 erg in 1988, and just last year bought slides (a leap of faith purchase). As Xeno says, once you try Slides, you'll never go back. That is so true, having two ergs I never get on the erg without the slides. As far as easier goes, it's easier on the whole body (feet, legs, back,...), just not any easier or faster rowing. If you don't have a Heart Rate monitor, I'd get one of those too.

[old] Mark Keating · Post by **[old] Mark Keating** » July 17th, 2005, 7:45 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE(fiftyeggs @ Jul 17 2005, 11:33 PM)</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>The slides don't hate you Mr. Rupp, they wait for you like a beautiful virgin princess and wish only to glide. </td></tr></table> Mark

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » July 17th, 2005, 8:45 pm

Eddie, Yes that's right it's basically a form issue, and the slides being much faster because there is much less weight to move back and forth. Also the bungees on slides store the rower's weight force and toss the rower in the other direction at the end of each stroke. There have been many reports on the forums of people going 2 to 6% faster on the slides. The greater the difference in weight, the greater the time advantage on the slides.

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » July 17th, 2005, 8:59 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE(fiftyeggs @ Jul 17 2005, 04:33 PM)</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>One reason I am convinced of this is that it can be a bit of a challenge to row strapless on a slideless erg. With the slides the staps are an afterthought. </td></tr></table> As to strapless rowing on the erg, I did 6 million meters totally strapless a couple of years ago, including my marathon and half marathon PB's. It shouldn't be that hard to learn to row without straps. In my opinion it would be better to learn good form, and/or how to row without straps, rather than trying to cover up the problems with slides. On the other hand if you're a heavyweight and want a 4 to 5 minute improvement in your half marathon time, the slides might be an easy way to get it. I certainly don't have anything against slides and think anyone should be able to use them who feels they are helpful. It's just too bad there is no ranking for them. By the way, putting straps around your heels is not strapless.

[old] PaulS · Post by **[old] PaulS** » July 18th, 2005, 12:30 pm

How come we haven't seen a QUACK!!! in such a long time? It would take too long to bother addressing the inaccuracies in John's postings. (i.e. 99% of anything he writes) Get the slides, if you aren't happy with them, I'd bet there is someone here who would be happy to take them off your hands at a reasonable price.

[old] Canoeist · Post by **[old] Canoeist** » July 18th, 2005, 1:42 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Jul 18 2005, 12:45 AM)</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>the bungees on slides store the rower's weight force and toss the rower in the other direction at the end of each stroke. </td></tr></table> The bungees are at both ends of the slides. They would hurt your stroke as you stored energy in the bungee. As my physics professor said, "there is no free lunch!" Cheers, Paul Flack PS: The force that can be stored in the bungees is very minimal. A fully extended bungee does not have enough force to overcome the friction in the slide wheels in order to move me back to the center of the slide.

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