Do You Want To Know How To Train?

[old] Mel Harbour · Post by **[old] Mel Harbour** » July 14th, 2005, 12:23 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Xeno @ Jul 14 2005, 09:07 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Hi Mel<br />I forgot your rowing background again.<br />Can you tell me again if you have done so before.<br />It is great to see how smaller countries are producing highly efficient teams such as the U.K. and even on a smaller scale Croatia, TCH, and Slovenia. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />I took up rowing at university (Cambridge). I sculled (LM1x) for my home nation (Guernsey!) in the 2002 Commonwealth regatta. I rowed against Oxford in the lightweight reserves race in 2003 (nope, we didn't get on TV!). But to be honest, I'm a better coach than rower. I guess if you consider 'coaching' to be a sport independent skill (I do), it's kind of in my blood, as my Dad coached elite level squash, including a world champion and world number 1. It's interesting when I chat about coaching with him, the number of parallels between coaching in different sports. An example:<br /><br />One of the standard shots you aim to play in squash would be a straight drive down one of the side walls. The aims would include keeping the ball as tight to the wall as possible, and aiming the length of the drive so that its second bounce is in the angle of the wall and floor at the back of the court. If my dad's players were practising that particular shot, they would play it again and again (with him feeding the ball). Each shot would recieve a verbal score out of 10. Now, to me, that's basically the same technique as one rowing coach used to use (I'm sure Xeno will know the one I mean!). Each catch would recieve a 'yes' or (more frequently!) a 'no', until it was exactly right every single stroke!<br /><br />Anyway, I'm now busy coaching the Cambridge University Women's Lightweight squad. We get various bits of information passed down from the national squad through some of the coaches and from some of the alumni who now row for the national team (half of the W4x in Lucerne was ex-CUWBC, also the LW1x).<br /><br />Mel

[old] bmoore · Post by **[old] bmoore** » July 14th, 2005, 8:32 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(mpukita @ Jul 13 2005, 02:14 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Jul 13 2005, 11:10 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(mpukita @ Jul 12 2005, 06:01 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>As an engineer, I appreciate the quantitative and scientific approach that most of the book takes on training, racing, coxing, you name it. </td></tr></table><br />So far there have not been any good reasons to get the book, even though some of you get it anyway.<br /><br />But then a lot of people buy SUV's. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />John:<br /><br />I'm new to this as of May '05. I spend much time reading just about every new post trying to learn as much as I can about this sport. I have my own business, my wife travels 80% of the time with her job, I have a 15 year-old daughter who deserves lots of attention (and she gets it) ... so time is not a luxury for me. So, I ask this in all sincerity ...<br /><br />Do you just take the contrary point on just about every topic here because you have too much time on your hands and nothing better to do, just tying to get under the skin of others, or are you REALLY SERIOUS when you post?<br /><br />I'm not trying to be a jerk here, just trying to figure out whether or not to list you as an "ignore user" so I don't waste valuable time reading your posts if you're just "busting" on people.<br /><br />Thanks -- Mark <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br /><br />I'll second this question. (Now to find the ignore user function...)

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » July 14th, 2005, 9:39 pm

Mpukita and Bmoore have been iggied.

[old] PaulS · Post by **[old] PaulS** » July 14th, 2005, 9:54 pm

Ignore-ance is bliss! <br /><br />You see, Bizzarro World, has no-one that disagrees with John, it's a very happy place for him. Pretty soon, he will have ignored everyone. (though not quite soon enough)

[old] PeteVu · Post by **[old] PeteVu** » July 14th, 2005, 10:04 pm

sorry to get a little bit off the current topic, but i was wondering if there is a good book for a novice to read. Im just getting into the world of rowing and I wouldnt want to start with a book that's way over my head.

[old] PaulS · Post by **[old] PaulS** » July 14th, 2005, 10:22 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PeteVu @ Jul 14 2005, 06:04 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>sorry to get a little bit off the current topic, but i was wondering if there is a good book for a novice to read. Im just getting into the world of rowing and I wouldnt want to start with a book that's way over my head. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Rowing Faster (as discussed in another thread) would be fine. I can't help but think that it was written with a broad audience in mind. There may be some things that you are not interested in, but it is not a difficult read for a beginning rower. Be sure to ask plenty of questions about points that might seem confusing, there are several in the book, it's not the authors fault for the most part, but the anti-intuitive nature of what we are trying to accomplish while rowing.

[old] bmoore · Post by **[old] bmoore** » July 15th, 2005, 2:48 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Jul 14 2005, 09:39 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Mpukita and Bmoore have been iggied. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />And yet the question of your motivation remains open.<br /><br />John, I respect your times for your age and your history of running 70 miles per week. (8 years in the Army, and I never liked running). But your double-speak, non-response responses are quite odd. The PATT is interesting, but how does that help me? (Is it just a Rainman thing?) Are you just heckling the crowd here? One of my core values is authenticity, and I'm not sure I see that in what you've posted here. I see hints of helpfulness, but then what appears to be a bitter, scathing opionion comes through. So what's the deal? Do we just need to gang up on you in February and give you a group hug at the CRASH-Bs?<br /><br />Please. Get real. I'm willing to bet you have something to offer.

[old] PaulS · Post by **[old] PaulS** » July 15th, 2005, 7:35 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(bmoore @ Jul 14 2005, 10:48 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Please. Get real. I'm willing to bet you have something to offer. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Sorry Bill, but you've been ignored ("igged") in record time, so your very tollerant post will never be seen by the person it is directed at.<br /><br />I'll take that bet however.

[old] Dickie · Post by **[old] Dickie** » July 15th, 2005, 8:31 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(bmoore @ Jul 15 2005, 02:48 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Jul 14 2005, 09:39 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Mpukita and Bmoore have been iggied. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />And yet the question of your motivation remains open.<br /><br />John, I respect your times for your age and your history of running 70 miles per week. (8 years in the Army, and I never liked running). But your double-speak, non-response responses are quite odd. The PATT is interesting, but how does that help me? (Is it just a Rainman thing?) Are you just heckling the crowd here? One of my core values is authenticity, and I'm not sure I see that in what you've posted here. I see hints of helpfulness, but then what appears to be a bitter, scathing opionion comes through. So what's the deal? Do we just need to gang up on you in February and give you a group hug at the CRASH-Bs?<br /><br />Please. Get real. I'm willing to bet you have something to offer. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Like you, I once thought John had something to offer, but I was WRONG!!!!!

[old] bmoore · Post by **[old] bmoore** » July 15th, 2005, 1:05 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Jul 15 2005, 07:35 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(bmoore @ Jul 14 2005, 10:48 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Please. Get real. I'm willing to bet you have something to offer. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Sorry Bill, but you've been ignored ("igged") in record time, so your very tollerant post will never be seen by the person it is directed at.<br /><br />I'll take that bet however. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />It's too bad he ignores people for genuine questions. Two minutes before he did this, he posted an interesting response regarding my 2k time and the 90% PATT. I'd be interested to see how he ties this together with real performances and goal setting. Personally, I'd rather set goals with more meaning. (i.e. top 10 in the US or the USIRT Development Squad qualifying time). Besides, the 40-49 world records are all going to be destroyed by Dwayne Adams soon, so adjusting to a percentage of his times in my first year of rowing seems silly. But, alas, I suspect the PATT is mindless number crunching.<br /><br />Since you posted this, I just wanted to comment on my workout yesterday. Since I just set a 2k PB, my reference times for workouts all changed. I did a Level 2 pyramid with a goal pace of 1:57. I hit the pace, but I had to give up the 10MPS. (I'm currently in Phoenix, so I'm on a different machine/environment). I think that I'll hit the rate/pace combo next time, but I just wanted to hit my goal pace yesterday. Any thoughts on priorities between the rate and pace in training? Alternating between them may make sense to let the conditioning catch up.<br /><br />Thanks for your insights.

[old] PaulS · Post by **[old] PaulS** » July 15th, 2005, 1:36 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(bmoore @ Jul 15 2005, 09:05 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>I suspect the PATT is mindless number crunching.<br /> </td></tr></table><br />You may be a bit to sharp to be a rower... <br /><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Since you posted this, I just wanted to comment on my workout yesterday. Since I just set a 2k PB, my reference times for workouts all changed. I did a Level 2 pyramid with a goal pace of 1:57. I hit the pace, but I had to give up the 10MPS. (I'm currently in Phoenix, so I'm on a different machine/environment). I think that I'll hit the rate/pace combo next time, but I just wanted to hit my goal pace yesterday. Any thoughts on priorities between the rate and pace in training? Alternating between them may make sense to let the conditioning catch up.<br /><br />Thanks for your insights. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />When training on the Erg, or directing training on the Erg, the one non-negotiable principle I stick with is S10MPS, as it is the most direct way I have found to have a valid control on the process of evaluating progress. i.e. if you could accomplish all targets at S10PS then advance the target, if not repeat that target until you can, simple, yet objective. Rate and pace are completely tied together under this constraint, which I guess pretty much nails down my prioritizing of them. <br /><br />Another way, would be to fix the rate and time, evaluating distance covered, but IMO this doesn nothing to train proper rhythm, and in fact could diminish it.<br /><br />I'm looking forward to meeting Dwayne next week at Masters Worlds, along with at least one other Phoenix Rower, a Ted P., who I will be teaming up with in a 2x to see if we can scare anyone other than ourselves. <br />

[old] bmoore · Post by **[old] bmoore** » July 15th, 2005, 1:54 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Jul 15 2005, 01:36 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(bmoore @ Jul 15 2005, 09:05 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>I suspect the PATT is mindless number crunching.<br /> </td></tr></table><br />You may be a bit to sharp to be a rower... <br /><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Since you posted this, I just wanted to comment on my workout yesterday. Since I just set a 2k PB, my reference times for workouts all changed. I did a Level 2 pyramid with a goal pace of 1:57. I hit the pace, but I had to give up the 10MPS. (I'm currently in Phoenix, so I'm on a different machine/environment). I think that I'll hit the rate/pace combo next time, but I just wanted to hit my goal pace yesterday. Any thoughts on priorities between the rate and pace in training? Alternating between them may make sense to let the conditioning catch up.<br /><br />Thanks for your insights. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />When training on the Erg, or directing training on the Erg, the one non-negotiable principle I stick with is S10MPS, as it is the most direct way I have found to have a valid control on the process of evaluating progress. i.e. if you could accomplish all targets at S10PS then advance the target, if not repeat that target until you can, simple, yet objective. Rate and pace are completely tied together under this constraint, which I guess pretty much nails down my prioritizing of them. <br /><br />Another way, would be to fix the rate and time, evaluating distance covered, but IMO this doesn nothing to train proper rhythm, and in fact could diminish it.<br /><br />I'm looking forward to meeting Dwayne next week at Masters Worlds, along with at least one other Phoenix Rower, a Ted P., who I will be teaming up with in a 2x to see if we can scare anyone other than ourselves. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br /><br />Thanks for the clarification. I really like the feel of 10MPS, and what it will do for my strength and endurance. Looking back my rates were all over the place. I've got my pace/rate combos targeted for each workout, but I have a hard time watching the meters go by to catch on the zeros. I find it easy to hit 10MPS on a level 1 or 3 workout, but the fast, long intervals of level 2 are pretty tough. (The feedback with RowPro is also very helpful, especially the analyze function where I can compare workouts for pace, rate, heartrate, and distance per stroke.)

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