Do You Want To Know How To Train?

[[old] michael]

<!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><br />I had a stepped test done for VO2max because I wanted to test my fitness level.  I had tested well so they suggested that I also do a lactate profile since I could benefit from better understanding my traning zones.  I went back a couple weeks later and completed a stepped test lactate profile (ear lobe prick).<br /><br />I will retest later this year to see if my VO2max and lactate profile has changed.  It is just a way for me to see how I am progressing.  I am not genetically gifted in having an extremely large VO2max so my best chance of improvement is to work to shift my lactate threshold to a larger percentage of my VO2max.<br /><br />I got this done at the <a href='http://www.edb.utexas.edu/fit/assessments.htm' target='_blank'>Fitness Institute of Texas</a> @ UT Austin.<br /><br />Steve <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Steve,<br /><br />I'm glad you happened to post this web address--I've been looking for a place in the Dallas-Fort Worth area that performs fitness testing and the Fitness Institute of Texas appears to far better staffed/equipped than the places I've investigated. Did you happen to have the DEXA scan performed for body fat percentage? How helpful were the staff and how much did your testing cost?<br />

[[old] slo_boat]

<!--QuoteBegin-Steve_R+Jul 8 2005, 09:15 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Steve_R @ Jul 8 2005, 09:15 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Xeno+Jul 6 2005, 08:42 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Xeno @ Jul 6 2005, 08:42 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--> [right] </td></tr></table><br />I got this done at the <a href='http://www.edb.utexas.edu/fit/assessments.htm' target='_blank'>Fitness Institute of Texas</a> @ UT Austin. <br /> </td></tr></table><br />Thanks for the info and the link about testing. I've heard that UT does this, and I figured that with their exercise phys program there must be some grad students looking for subjects, but I never got around to checking it out.

[[old] John Rupp]

<!--QuoteBegin-mpukita+Jul 12 2005, 06:01 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(mpukita @ Jul 12 2005, 06:01 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As an engineer, I appreciate the quantitative and scientific approach that most of the book takes on training, racing, coxing, you name it. </td></tr></table><br />So far there have not been any good reasons to get the book, even though some of you get it anyway.<br /><br />But then a lot of people buy SUV's.

[[old] PaulS]

<!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+Jul 13 2005, 07:10 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Jul 13 2005, 07:10 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->But then a lot of people buy SUV's. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Perhaps you could tell us the population of Bizzarro world. Let me guess, one?

[[old] NavigationHazard]

<!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+Jul 13 2005, 10:10 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Jul 13 2005, 10:10 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-mpukita+Jul 12 2005, 06:01 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(mpukita @ Jul 12 2005, 06:01 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As an engineer, I appreciate the quantitative and scientific approach that most of the book takes on training, racing, coxing, you name it. </td></tr></table><br />So far there have not been any good reasons to get the book, even though some of you get it anyway.<br /><br />But then a lot of people buy SUV's. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />I've heard rumors that Eskil and other top lightweights have bought it and memorized it.<br /><br />But apparently they read it at 38 pages per minute, and at altitude where there's less air resistance and the pages turn faster....

[[old] Bayko]

The book apparently has no chapters concerning:<br /><br />A.) Trading Weight for pace <br /><br />B.) Rushing the Drive <br /><br />C.) Stroke Length Index <br /><br />D.) Cheating by using Slides <br /><br />E.) PATT <br /><br />Or any other of the myriad John Rupp bizarro theories.<br /><br />No wonder he is in a snit about it.

[[old] Mark Keating]

<!--QuoteBegin-NavigationHazard+Jul 13 2005, 03:49 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(NavigationHazard @ Jul 13 2005, 03:49 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+Jul 13 2005, 10:10 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Jul 13 2005, 10:10 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-mpukita+Jul 12 2005, 06:01 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(mpukita @ Jul 12 2005, 06:01 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As an engineer, I appreciate the quantitative and scientific approach that most of the book takes on training, racing, coxing, you name it. </td></tr></table><br />So far there have not been any good reasons to get the book, even though some of you get it anyway.<br /><br />But then a lot of people buy SUV's. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />I've heard rumors that Eskil and other top lightweights have bought it and memorized it.<br /><br />But apparently they read it at 38 pages per minute, and at altitude where there's less air resistance and the pages turn faster.... <br /> </td></tr></table><br />I think John is right. Why would anyone choose to invest in a book recommended by just another run-of-the-mill Olympic gold medallist when we all enjoy the privilege and opportunity of someone of Mr. Rupp's status sharing his wealth of knowledge in a public forum. We should all be flogged for our foolishness.<br /><br />I'm cancelling my book order right now. Thanks again John.<br /><br />giggle, giggle, giggle, tee hee hee, wah hah hah

[[old] mpukita]

<!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+Jul 13 2005, 11:10 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Jul 13 2005, 11:10 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-mpukita+Jul 12 2005, 06:01 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(mpukita @ Jul 12 2005, 06:01 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As an engineer, I appreciate the quantitative and scientific approach that most of the book takes on training, racing, coxing, you name it. </td></tr></table><br />So far there have not been any good reasons to get the book, even though some of you get it anyway.<br /><br />But then a lot of people buy SUV's. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />John:<br /><br />I'm new to this as of May '05. I spend much time reading just about every new post trying to learn as much as I can about this sport. I have my own business, my wife travels 80% of the time with her job, I have a 15 year-old daughter who deserves lots of attention (and she gets it) ... so time is not a luxury for me. So, I ask this in all sincerity ...<br /><br />Do you just take the contrary point on just about every topic here because you have too much time on your hands and nothing better to do, just tying to get under the skin of others, or are you REALLY SERIOUS when you post?<br /><br />I'm not trying to be a jerk here, just trying to figure out whether or not to list you as an "ignore user" so I don't waste valuable time reading your posts if you're just "busting" on people.<br /><br />Thanks -- Mark

[[old] Steve_R]

<!--QuoteBegin-michael+Jul 13 2005, 08:31 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(michael @ Jul 13 2005, 08:31 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Steve,<br /><br />I'm glad you happened to post this web address--I've been looking for a place in the Dallas-Fort Worth area that performs fitness testing and the Fitness Institute of Texas appears to far better staffed/equipped than the places I've investigated.  Did you happen to have the DEXA scan performed for body fat percentage?  How helpful were the staff and how much did your testing cost? <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />I have not done the DEXA but may at some point. They do a caliper and a BIA test for fat % as part of the VO2max test. Mine came out to 10% and I have since trimmed more. I'm not sure that knowing whether my body fat is 7%, 8% or 9% really matters for me. The staff was good, for my second test, I had one of the faculty conduct my test (he was the only one there during spring break) and he had a lot more information on physiology.<br /><br />I get UT Affiliate pricing so mine was $85 for my VO2max + lactate profile. I also talked them into bringing me a model C erg for my second test. I will probably bring my erg in next time because the erg that they got for me was not well maintained and I believe that the watts displayed was low for the effort I was putting in.<br /><br /><!--QuoteBegin-slo_boat+Jul 13 2005, 08:54 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(slo_boat @ Jul 13 2005, 08:54 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Steve_R+Jul 8 2005, 09:15 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Steve_R @ Jul 8 2005, 09:15 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Xeno+Jul 6 2005, 08:42 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Xeno @ Jul 6 2005, 08:42 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--> [right] </td></tr></table><br />I got this done at the <a href='http://www.edb.utexas.edu/fit/assessments.htm' target='_blank'>Fitness Institute of Texas</a> @ UT Austin. <br /> </td></tr></table><br />Thanks for the info and the link about testing. I've heard that UT does this, and I figured that with their exercise phys program there must be some grad students looking for subjects, but I never got around to checking it out. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />They do all sorts of testing. Last time I was in there, they were doing muscle biopsies of athletes. They are located at Royal Memorial Stadium FYI.<br /><br />The VO2max test on the erg is very hard. Because I was not on slides, the mouthpiece and inhale/exhale hoses had to be held by two of my friends as I erg'd. If you just want to get a good idea of your VO2max, I would suggest the cycling erg test. You will be very close to your maxHR as well with this.<br /><br />There is an inherent problem with doing a lactate profile and VO2max at the same time. The VO2max protocol requires a stepped effort until voluntary quitting. This means that you could start around 50 watts and go up by 25 watts for each step. Each step is around 90secs. That could mean you could probably get around your max 500m watt rating before not being able to go any further. With the lactate test, you are doing a stepped progression but you do each step for for a longer period of time, say around 3 mins. This would mean your max watts would end up being around your 1K PB. It would be better for your last step to be able to an all out effort for max watts to get your lactate max. You would get a good idea of LT from the test though, just not a good indication of lactate levels with all out sprint effort.<br /><br />Xeno,<br />What protocol did you follow doing VO2max / Lactate profiling?<br /><br />Steve

[[old] Xeno]

<!--QuoteBegin-Steve_R+Jul 13 2005, 07:38 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Steve_R @ Jul 13 2005, 07:38 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-michael+Jul 13 2005, 08:31 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(michael @ Jul 13 2005, 08:31 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Steve,<br /><br />I'm glad you happened to post this web address--I've been looking for a place in the Dallas-Fort Worth area that performs fitness testing and the Fitness Institute of Texas appears to far better staffed/equipped than the places I've investigated.  Did you happen to have the DEXA scan performed for body fat percentage?  How helpful were the staff and how much did your testing cost? <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />I have not done the DEXA but may at some point. They do a caliper and a BIA test for fat % as part of the VO2max test. Mine came out to 10% and I have since trimmed more. I'm not sure that knowing whether my body fat is 7%, 8% or 9% really matters for me. The staff was good, for my second test, I had one of the faculty conduct my test (he was the only one there during spring break) and he had a lot more information on physiology.<br /><br />I get UT Affiliate pricing so mine was $85 for my VO2max + lactate profile. I also talked them into bringing me a model C erg for my second test. I will probably bring my erg in next time because the erg that they got for me was not well maintained and I believe that the watts displayed was low for the effort I was putting in.<br /><br /><!--QuoteBegin-slo_boat+Jul 13 2005, 08:54 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(slo_boat @ Jul 13 2005, 08:54 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Steve_R+Jul 8 2005, 09:15 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Steve_R @ Jul 8 2005, 09:15 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Xeno+Jul 6 2005, 08:42 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Xeno @ Jul 6 2005, 08:42 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--> [right] </td></tr></table><br />I got this done at the <a href='http://www.edb.utexas.edu/fit/assessments.htm' target='_blank'>Fitness Institute of Texas</a> @ UT Austin. <br /> </td></tr></table><br />Thanks for the info and the link about testing. I've heard that UT does this, and I figured that with their exercise phys program there must be some grad students looking for subjects, but I never got around to checking it out. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />They do all sorts of testing. Last time I was in there, they were doing muscle biopsies of athletes. They are located at Royal Memorial Stadium FYI.<br /><br />The VO2max test on the erg is very hard. Because I was not on slides, the mouthpiece and inhale/exhale hoses had to be held by two of my friends as I erg'd. If you just want to get a good idea of your VO2max, I would suggest the cycling erg test. You will be very close to your maxHR as well with this.<br /><br />There is an inherent problem with doing a lactate profile and VO2max at the same time. The VO2max protocol requires a stepped effort until voluntary quitting. This means that you could start around 50 watts and go up by 25 watts for each step. Each step is around 90secs. That could mean you could probably get around your max 500m watt rating before not being able to go any further. With the lactate test, you are doing a stepped progression but you do each step for for a longer period of time, say around 3 mins. This would mean your max watts would end up being around your 1K PB. It would be better for your last step to be able to an all out effort for max watts to get your lactate max. You would get a good idea of LT from the test though, just not a good indication of lactate levels with all out sprint effort.<br /><br />Xeno,<br />What protocol did you follow doing VO2max / Lactate profiling?<br /><br />Steve <br /> </td></tr></table><br />Hi Steve<br />We didn't bother to know what our Max lactate level was. You can "improve" your lactate levels for sprinting by doing sprint pieces such as super twenties and MAX 500meters. The lacate levels give rowers the ability to notice changes in their aerobic condition by doing step test of as long as six minutes at a time. The protocols are different from one country to the other. The most important is that you keep it the same for your team. By the way if you want to know what your max lactate level is: Be careful not to injure yourself. Row as HARD as you possible can for one minute. Most likely you will hit the wall at around thrity five seconds but keep going like a sicko. Your stroke rate will be high and every single stroke is pulled as hard as if the future of humanity depended on it.<br />XENO

[[old] Steve_R]

<!--QuoteBegin-Xeno+Jul 13 2005, 09:55 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Xeno @ Jul 13 2005, 09:55 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The lacate levels give rowers the ability to notice changes in their aerobic condition by doing step test of as long as six minutes at a time.  The protocols are different from one country to the other.  The most important is that you keep it the same for your team.<br />XENO <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />I think that a 6min protocol would give a much more accurate determination of OBLA since at 3min steps you could see slight uptick in lactate accumulation that would be very evident at 6 mins.<br /><br />Steve

[[old] Mel Harbour]

The British squad currently use 4 minute steps (typically 5 of them).<br /><br />As Xeno says, the intensity for these isn't spectacular.<br /><br />They will then do one further 4 minute step at the highest possible pace for 4 minutes. This is for VO2Max determination (they are performing gas analysis).<br /><br />Although they've recently found that generally the most important marker for the bulk of their training is the 2mmol/l level. This can be assessed by having an athlete row 3x6k r18 with 90s break, with the requirement of keeping the lactate level below 2mmol/l. The athletes learn the correct feeling.<br /><br />This marker even on its own will give a lot of clues about how the athletes are. It also has the advantage that it's just a normal training session anyway, so doesn't disrupt them at all.

[[old] Xeno]

<!--QuoteBegin-Mel Harbour+Jul 14 2005, 06:11 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Mel Harbour @ Jul 14 2005, 06:11 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The British squad currently use 4 minute steps (typically 5 of them).<br /><br />As Xeno says, the intensity for these isn't spectacular.<br /><br />They will then do one further 4 minute step at the highest possible pace for 4 minutes.  This is for VO2Max determination (they are performing gas analysis).<br /><br />Although they've recently found that generally the most important marker for the bulk of their training is the 2mmol/l level.  This can be assessed by having an athlete row 3x6k r18 with 90s break, with the requirement of keeping the lactate level below 2mmol/l.  The athletes learn the correct feeling.<br /><br />This marker even on its own will give a lot of clues about how the athletes are.  It also has the advantage that it's just a normal training session anyway, so doesn't disrupt them at all. <br /> </td></tr></table><br />Hi Mel<br />I forgot your rowing background again.<br />Can you tell me again if you have done so before.<br />It is great to see how smaller countries are producing highly efficient teams such as the U.K. and even on a smaller scale Croatia, TCH, and Slovenia.

[[old] michael]

Steve,<br /><br />Thanks for your reply and valuable information--I'm primed now to set an appointment with the Fitness Institute and drive down sometime this Fall. I guess I can put my Model C in my Camry. I would never have considered testing with it as an option! Thanks again.<br /><br />Michael

[[old] michael]

I've completed reading about half of the book "Rowing Faster", ed. by Volker Nolte. Mind you, I've never rowed on water before, but I have read books on cycling and X-C skiing physiology, activities I've engaged in. <br /><br />From what I've read so far, this book provides an exceptional body of information on how to develop an aerobic base, improving one's anaerobic threshold, strength building, rowing biomechanics, bladework, etc. There are entire chapters devoted individually to the catch, drive and recovery phases, race plans, tactics and even on how to design your individual training plan. The chapter on ergometer technique was helpful, even if a bit short. There is, however a very comprehensive erg evaluation form that covers every possible aspect on the rowing stroke. There are numerous charts and technical drawings dealing with vectors, physical forces, lactate, wattage, etc. There's even a cool photo of a rower on a Model C having his VO2 max tested in a lab!<br /><br />Highest recommendation! Thanks, Xeno!